Hello all lovely readers. Penny here. This is my site devoted to the exposure of a cult of martial artists put on Bullshido and Cultmaster over the years. I have no affiliation with the hackers and misguided COL faction that have thus far invaded my family's privacy, and those of former students of the academy, to find out who I am and if I am related in some way to them. To set the record straight, I am not related to any of them. I merely have been copying and pasting material from them here. I have since destroyed the hard files of this information. They no longer exist on me or with me. Any attempt to come out here and find them will fail. I became interested in the cult when in 2005 I was associated with YongSa nation and knew of them from some demos, although I was never a student of JSW. I did actually meet most of them at the demo. My Mother, Jane, who has been impersonated on the net by several fakers, including someone posting on BS as KittyKi, is not a student, not on BS, and should be left alone. I also should be left alone. I am no threat. I have a right to print what I like. This is not a communist state. It was I who responded to some of the rants on KittyKi's site, and had used it on occasion, hacked by my former friends inside. They were more than happy to give me the password as they were done destroying some black belt's reputation. The real Kitty Ki only posted neutral things about JSW. All the times he posted bad comments were done without his immediate knowledge, and once they were found, he could not get Phrost to delete them, as Phrost had deleted Chica's. Once I figured out they got the wrong guy, I broke it off. It is not nice to try and destroy people on the net, or cuss at them, but they were not nice. They destroyed Mom's computer, and that of another friend, using a slew of viruses. Now that I am of legal age and she has moved out of state, I thought to come here and address all of you dear readers. I posted under other names also. You can guess who I am now. But I am not the former black belt who was posting as the real Kitty Ki. I find it disturbing you shut him up so effectively, but more so that you cared what he wrote. So I have created this site to rectify that, and spread the word that the net cannot be shut up. I believe the SLAPP, or tampering with sites, is illegal, COL. Knock it off. Did you really give a crap what some ex student said about you? If it's not true, if there is no basis in reality to any claims on that mega thread, then why all the subterfuge? Come out, COL. Come out and do a video explaining that these things are lies, and give proof. In the court of opinion thus far, you are deranged and brainwashed. Come clean, COL. Go on BS and make a long commentary about how Tae Yun Kim is legit, show proof, dispute claims by Clare and Shadow and Failed and the like. And no, COL, you have not caught me. You still have no idea who I really am. And if you think I am that black belt, you are insane. I was not a student. I am an interested third party. I only alogise for cussing your butts out on BS a few times as fake Kitty Ki, but the former student doesn't know. Well, now he might. He might google this someday. But you'll never know. Your greatest threat is not Kitty, but rather, Clare or Shadow, who know you all so well. You cannot deny these things anymore. You can never go back. Pandora has opened her box.
Penny D.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011
Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Legendary Masters and only a few articles but nothing more?
Last July (the 9th) the Jung SuWonies had a Legendary Masters tournament (stealing said logo from other sources) in San Clara. I am disappointed that there are no videos up, which is surprising considering Kimmie loves the camera. They have posted an TKD Times article, likely written by students, possibly prolific Sarah of the smile, seen on more sites than any other student, in print. Erika of the Everest has only been seen through YouTube promo videos and has a successful channel. She could also have helped with the article. But no video of the actual demo exists. They've posted some of older demos saying 'look it's like this one' but nothing from the event. Even the dubious knighthood story got some coverage, but not the demo. Come on, did you forget to film it? That would be ironic. It's been a month.
Tuesday, July 5, 2011
The Cult of COL according to Bullshido, Part 13
Failed Student said, “I went to that link you posted Ai Touch, and have a few comments about some of the awards I personally know about....The Susan B Anthony award came about as a result of Scott naming her for it. One single person, not the entire community. So she got her picture in the Burlington Free Press in all her glory - with the wig du jour and a tuxedo.....
“I participated in a demo at Champlain College with her when I very briefly returned to her fold, and at that time she stated she had her doctorate in Human Services. No way...the only course she took to my knowledge was in English composition at UVM.
“So knowing how she speaks untruths and receives an award based upon one person's nomination, I would question and further investigate just how Tae Yun received the grand - er, great grandmaster rank if you are so inclined. Is there even such a title as great grandmaster? And while you're at it, check out the Order of Constantine knighthood too
“I speak the truth and make no apologies for that. If I come off as harsh, so be it. I try not to make ad hominem attacks against any poster, but when many ex followers of Tae Yun come on this board and speak about their first hand experience, it has to be given credence.”
“I participated in a demo at Champlain College with her when I very briefly returned to her fold, and at that time she stated she had her doctorate in Human Services. No way...the only course she took to my knowledge was in English composition at UVM.
“So knowing how she speaks untruths and receives an award based upon one person's nomination, I would question and further investigate just how Tae Yun received the grand - er, great grandmaster rank if you are so inclined. Is there even such a title as great grandmaster? And while you're at it, check out the Order of Constantine knighthood too
“I speak the truth and make no apologies for that. If I come off as harsh, so be it. I try not to make ad hominem attacks against any poster, but when many ex followers of Tae Yun come on this board and speak about their first hand experience, it has to be given credence.”
Shadow Dancer said, “It is the way kim works. If she can get someone else to say she is something, then voila... it must be true. She doesn't need to do the work or earn the rank.
“She spouted some blather to a ghost writer, who organized, embellished, and wrote a book... then voila... she is a published writer. She gets COL and Scott to buy up all the books, and voila... she is a best seller.
“She gets her picture taken with enough celebrities and then shazzam... she is assumed to be one of them and in their circle.
“Scott gives her the title of CEO of LWS, and hocus-pocus... she now feels like she is on par with Steve Jobs or Larry Ellison.
“She buys an honorary doctorate from some unknown Korean college and abracadabra... she is now on the same level of someone who got their degree from Harvard.
“Let's not even go into the Order of Constantine... that is just sad... the pathetic grasping of a face-lifted social climber.”
“AiTouch is exactly the type of person she is looking for... someone who will say that the emperor is wearing fabulous clothes or that the Oz truly is great and mighty. Just be sure not to look behind the curtain.”
“She spouted some blather to a ghost writer, who organized, embellished, and wrote a book... then voila... she is a published writer. She gets COL and Scott to buy up all the books, and voila... she is a best seller.
“She gets her picture taken with enough celebrities and then shazzam... she is assumed to be one of them and in their circle.
“Scott gives her the title of CEO of LWS, and hocus-pocus... she now feels like she is on par with Steve Jobs or Larry Ellison.
“She buys an honorary doctorate from some unknown Korean college and abracadabra... she is now on the same level of someone who got their degree from Harvard.
“Let's not even go into the Order of Constantine... that is just sad... the pathetic grasping of a face-lifted social climber.”
“AiTouch is exactly the type of person she is looking for... someone who will say that the emperor is wearing fabulous clothes or that the Oz truly is great and mighty. Just be sure not to look behind the curtain.”
Shadow Dancer said, “I have a suggestion for Kimper's next Kaper. She has been thinking too small. I remember when she was given a black belt, poster, and plastic key ring from some obscure martial arts federation... she compared it to the Nobel Prize. It got me thinking...
“Nominations and deliberations surrounding the Nobel prize are sealed for 50 years. Why not have Scotty send a letter to the Nobel committee nominating kimmy. Then they could claim that kimpers is under consideration for the Nobel Prize. She could blather about her knowledge of da enagi and claim that the category she is in consideration for is particle physics. LWS could claim that Dr. Kim (who heads a company that makes laser particle detectors) has extensive knowledge of the subject. She or Scottums could browbeat all of the employees into writing glowing letters about her. Think about what a coup this would be. I'm sure the bogus nature of this will be no problem for her flexible morals.
“Nominations and deliberations surrounding the Nobel prize are sealed for 50 years. Why not have Scotty send a letter to the Nobel committee nominating kimmy. Then they could claim that kimpers is under consideration for the Nobel Prize. She could blather about her knowledge of da enagi and claim that the category she is in consideration for is particle physics. LWS could claim that Dr. Kim (who heads a company that makes laser particle detectors) has extensive knowledge of the subject. She or Scottums could browbeat all of the employees into writing glowing letters about her. Think about what a coup this would be. I'm sure the bogus nature of this will be no problem for her flexible morals.
Shadow Dancer said, “Hi Carson. I'm having some trouble remembering which of her honors is legit and worthwhile. I've tried to think back myself, but find that every one I can remember is either bogus or obtained under questionable circumstances. Her efforts in "Just Say No" were all terminated after her photo op was finished. All that she did was march in a parade while the rest of us did the foot work. Her participation with cancer survivors seems particularly despicable since all the the times she said she was getting cancer treatment, it was either plastic surgery or vacation trips overseas.
“Hey... another idea... Scotty can create the 'Noble" prize (instead of Nobel). He could then award her with it and with her pidgeon english, no one will the know the difference between Nobel and Noble.
“Hey... another idea... Scotty can create the 'Noble" prize (instead of Nobel). He could then award her with it and with her pidgeon english, no one will the know the difference between Nobel and Noble.
Failed Student said, “How funny but how true. I remember being given a huge poster of Tae Yun advertising her school (ATC). She explained that the printers were unable to remove the halo around her head ....
“Then there was the keychain that Scott hawked for four bucks each with her picture in it. A piece of cheap plastic probably worth no more than a quarter. They couldn't get me to buy one.
“Scott gave me a black and white 8x10 photo of Tae Yun that I was supposed to display prominently in my home......It was taken when she was probably about 30 years old or so.
Then there was a large framed photo of Tae Yun that I was required to return when I was suspended. Scott checked it over to see that I had not damaged it while it was in my possession.. Tae Yun has a real ego problem.
“Then there was the keychain that Scott hawked for four bucks each with her picture in it. A piece of cheap plastic probably worth no more than a quarter. They couldn't get me to buy one.
“Scott gave me a black and white 8x10 photo of Tae Yun that I was supposed to display prominently in my home......It was taken when she was probably about 30 years old or so.
Then there was a large framed photo of Tae Yun that I was required to return when I was suspended. Scott checked it over to see that I had not damaged it while it was in my possession.. Tae Yun has a real ego problem.
bemused said, “Ah, relationships and acronyms. Such were the nature of Tae Yun's control.
“At first, it appeared that no one in COL had relationships except the Gs and the Ls, who were married before they joined. Although I suspected, even as a beginning student, that Tae Yun and MM were together (this was confirmed by an earlier poster). Celibacy seemed to be the order of the day for those of us of insufficient spiritual strength.
“But then Scott-ES and DP-KW were announced, and after that relationships proliferated. After the breakup of her marriage, ES was assigned to Scott; apparently she was more pleased with this than he was. KW was with DP until he left, then with MF, then briefly with Adam G. Adam G was with Tae Yun herself, but also had encounters with HC, AP, KW, and perhaps more women. I could go on. Tae Yun tried to regulate and limit couples' intimacy so the focus would remain on her, although there was some sneaking around behind her back. And I think she liked breaking up marriages just for the sheer power of it.
“CA and I chose each other, but we were limited in how much time we could spend and how intimate we could get. At first, he seemed eager for any contact with me, but as the years went by, he became more and more of a workaholic, and finally, at the end, I wasn't sure if we still had a relationship or not. I broke up with him via email because it was the only way I could reach him at all. Sad.
“Naming is what parents do, and I think Tae Yun liked to take the place of the parents of her students. Someone in a previous post said that Tae Yun renamed a few people who were running away from creditors, then renamed more to cover that up.
“As for me, I was RS when I started training. She renamed me JS (different S). When I got married about two years after I left, I took the opportunity to change my name again. I put together the R from before COL, the J from COL, and the P from my husband after COL, becoming RJP. I tried to integrate my fractured name the way I've tried to integrate my fractured life.
“At first, it appeared that no one in COL had relationships except the Gs and the Ls, who were married before they joined. Although I suspected, even as a beginning student, that Tae Yun and MM were together (this was confirmed by an earlier poster). Celibacy seemed to be the order of the day for those of us of insufficient spiritual strength.
“But then Scott-ES and DP-KW were announced, and after that relationships proliferated. After the breakup of her marriage, ES was assigned to Scott; apparently she was more pleased with this than he was. KW was with DP until he left, then with MF, then briefly with Adam G. Adam G was with Tae Yun herself, but also had encounters with HC, AP, KW, and perhaps more women. I could go on. Tae Yun tried to regulate and limit couples' intimacy so the focus would remain on her, although there was some sneaking around behind her back. And I think she liked breaking up marriages just for the sheer power of it.
“CA and I chose each other, but we were limited in how much time we could spend and how intimate we could get. At first, he seemed eager for any contact with me, but as the years went by, he became more and more of a workaholic, and finally, at the end, I wasn't sure if we still had a relationship or not. I broke up with him via email because it was the only way I could reach him at all. Sad.
“Naming is what parents do, and I think Tae Yun liked to take the place of the parents of her students. Someone in a previous post said that Tae Yun renamed a few people who were running away from creditors, then renamed more to cover that up.
“As for me, I was RS when I started training. She renamed me JS (different S). When I got married about two years after I left, I took the opportunity to change my name again. I put together the R from before COL, the J from COL, and the P from my husband after COL, becoming RJP. I tried to integrate my fractured name the way I've tried to integrate my fractured life.
Failed Student said, “All the aforementioned initials are giving me a headache, but anyway, back here in Vermont Tae Yun did a good job of breaking up marriages and relationships too. She needed to be the center of attention, the focal point of everyone's lives.
“We were discouraged from making friends with whom we could do things outside the dojang. One young man and woman actually did manage to establish a relationship and married, but they had left training before that.
“I know that MF was seeing women before he got completely immersed in his training, and Scott stated in one of his testing essays that he was engaged to be married prior to getting brainwashed. WHH had plans to be a surgeon. That went down the tubes once he got sucked in. It is so sad to see lives ruined and derailed by this woman.”
“We were discouraged from making friends with whom we could do things outside the dojang. One young man and woman actually did manage to establish a relationship and married, but they had left training before that.
“I know that MF was seeing women before he got completely immersed in his training, and Scott stated in one of his testing essays that he was engaged to be married prior to getting brainwashed. WHH had plans to be a surgeon. That went down the tubes once he got sucked in. It is so sad to see lives ruined and derailed by this woman.”
Rossanna said “Bullshido is a place where "JSW Stuff" can be discussed openly with no COL intervention. The most they can do is join in the discussion which is their right just as everyone here has the right to talk about their own experiences. Facebook on the other hand is a bit more personal. I use it to communicate with family and friends and as I said before I do not accept requests from people I do not know simply because I don't like the idea of sharing whatever i have on my profile, be it pics, or discussions, or even just messages meant for PERSONAL friends and family with all and sundry.
“Regarding your comments about being “outed”, don't take it personally. Read through your previous posts. You blow hot and cold over the topics of kim, col and jsw. Not sure if you were just taking the role of devil's advocate in some cases but believe me when i tell you that in this scenario, the devil doesn't need any more advocates and if you persist in playing the part, then be prepared for the consequence of people not knowing whether to trust that you really are here just to share and not as a plant from the dark side so to speak. =D
“Adam G. The case with Kim was about the remote particle counter which Adam countered with a palimony suit as well as a host of other stuff. They settled out of court. The domestic violence thing was a restraining order slapped on by KW because of an incident that occurred while they were both still at LWS and in a relationship. TRO lasted a year and wasn't renewed. They have talked things out, apologies were made on both ends and it's done. This has nothing to do with Kim. It was an issue between the 2 of them and best left out of the discussion. Both have moved on and are content with their respective lives. Neither are interested in being a part of this so please respect that.
“Regarding your comments about being “outed”, don't take it personally. Read through your previous posts. You blow hot and cold over the topics of kim, col and jsw. Not sure if you were just taking the role of devil's advocate in some cases but believe me when i tell you that in this scenario, the devil doesn't need any more advocates and if you persist in playing the part, then be prepared for the consequence of people not knowing whether to trust that you really are here just to share and not as a plant from the dark side so to speak. =D
“Adam G. The case with Kim was about the remote particle counter which Adam countered with a palimony suit as well as a host of other stuff. They settled out of court. The domestic violence thing was a restraining order slapped on by KW because of an incident that occurred while they were both still at LWS and in a relationship. TRO lasted a year and wasn't renewed. They have talked things out, apologies were made on both ends and it's done. This has nothing to do with Kim. It was an issue between the 2 of them and best left out of the discussion. Both have moved on and are content with their respective lives. Neither are interested in being a part of this so please respect that.
New poster Buckyd said, “I wanted to thank all the ex-col and jsw members for their courage in speaking up. It does make a difference. Here's my story:
“The JSW demo team performed a "karate demonstration" at the Fremont Art Festival this summer in the kids' space. In my youth, I trained for a bit with positive results and I've been looking around for a place for my 5 year old daughter to learn the art, so she and I made sure to be there at the appointed time and watched the whole thing. While I thought that the mutliple references to the many-titled Grandmaster was a bit odd, I liked their overall message of acceptance/learning/bettering oneself through effort. JPalmer personally spoke with us, and he was quite charming. An Indian man was said to have started training there with his two children (although he appeared a little sheepish when this was so publicly pointed out), and it struck me that perhaps this was a place that she and I might train together. Certainly, the female-male equality was emphasized, which appealed to me. I added the school to the small list of places to consider this fall. After doing a little research on these (yelping, talking to friends whose kids do TKD or another MA, and reading this thread), I can confidently cross this one off the list.
“Consider your public statement as helping people make safe choices for themselves, if nothing else. I don't know whether my daughter's or my "type" of person would have appealed to Tae Yun for inner-circle invitations (we're a little bit on the independent and super-stubborn side), but I'm glad -- particularly for my daughter's and son's sakes -- I'm not going to find out.”
“The JSW demo team performed a "karate demonstration" at the Fremont Art Festival this summer in the kids' space. In my youth, I trained for a bit with positive results and I've been looking around for a place for my 5 year old daughter to learn the art, so she and I made sure to be there at the appointed time and watched the whole thing. While I thought that the mutliple references to the many-titled Grandmaster was a bit odd, I liked their overall message of acceptance/learning/bettering oneself through effort. JPalmer personally spoke with us, and he was quite charming. An Indian man was said to have started training there with his two children (although he appeared a little sheepish when this was so publicly pointed out), and it struck me that perhaps this was a place that she and I might train together. Certainly, the female-male equality was emphasized, which appealed to me. I added the school to the small list of places to consider this fall. After doing a little research on these (yelping, talking to friends whose kids do TKD or another MA, and reading this thread), I can confidently cross this one off the list.
“Consider your public statement as helping people make safe choices for themselves, if nothing else. I don't know whether my daughter's or my "type" of person would have appealed to Tae Yun for inner-circle invitations (we're a little bit on the independent and super-stubborn side), but I'm glad -- particularly for my daughter's and son's sakes -- I'm not going to find out.”
carson said, “Hi KitTae Yuni! Yes, LWS was pretty extreme for those who were also COL members. 90 + hour works weeks were the norm for some of us. I did so for 3+ years, and it took a huge toll on me, physically, mentally and emotionally. After I left it was several months before I began to de-stress and started to remember the things which I actually enjoyed about life.
“Thank you for backing off on your claims that some things to which you had no knowledge didn't happen. I was a part of many very strange 'classes', ones which I'm sure you would have trouble believing because they are so 'out there.' KK and Bemused had left before the group beating incident, but others may remember when Tae Yun was very angry at everyone for preparing to leave Stargazer (after she had told us all to do so because she was angry with 'everyone') Turns out she didn't actually want anyone to leave but wanted us all to grovel and beg her forgiveness. She came out screaming when she saw people getting ready to clean up and leave (she has cameras set up all throughout Stargazer so she can watch people from her home office.) She ordered everyone into re-birth full bowing position and proceded to whack everyone on the butt, legs are arms with her Mok Tok stick for a very long time. She just walked through the crowd beating on everyone. I don't know how many deep welts I got (all on areas that wouldn't show unless I removed my clothes) and it was hard to sit for weeks. Not one person got up and walked away. She beat especially hard on Scott because 'he hadn't stopped us from leaving.' He had some visible bruises that showed for days. He laughed them off to the non-COL at Lighthouse as sparring accidents.”
“Thank you for backing off on your claims that some things to which you had no knowledge didn't happen. I was a part of many very strange 'classes', ones which I'm sure you would have trouble believing because they are so 'out there.' KK and Bemused had left before the group beating incident, but others may remember when Tae Yun was very angry at everyone for preparing to leave Stargazer (after she had told us all to do so because she was angry with 'everyone') Turns out she didn't actually want anyone to leave but wanted us all to grovel and beg her forgiveness. She came out screaming when she saw people getting ready to clean up and leave (she has cameras set up all throughout Stargazer so she can watch people from her home office.) She ordered everyone into re-birth full bowing position and proceded to whack everyone on the butt, legs are arms with her Mok Tok stick for a very long time. She just walked through the crowd beating on everyone. I don't know how many deep welts I got (all on areas that wouldn't show unless I removed my clothes) and it was hard to sit for weeks. Not one person got up and walked away. She beat especially hard on Scott because 'he hadn't stopped us from leaving.' He had some visible bruises that showed for days. He laughed them off to the non-COL at Lighthouse as sparring accidents.”
carson said, “Hi Bemused! If you can, will you please point me to the write-up on when JW imitated Tae Yun? We may be writing about the same night, as a series of attempted imitations happened early on in the evening. (Tae Yun told a few of us to sit in her chair and act like her - most of us broke down and wouldn't do it. It was after JW did sit in her chair and attempt to imitate her that Tae Yun threw the fit, told us all to leave, and stormed out of the room. Once we actually did start to leave, Tae Yun returned and the beatings started.)
“The beating incident I wrote about happened at Stargazer, and the only participants were COL. It was early in 2004, I believe, perhaps at the Lunar New Year program but I'm not sure.
“I left on Nov 1, 2004, so if the event you spoke about above (with the Korean dignateries and 3 am phone call) was in 2004, it must have been late in the year as I don't remember it. Tae Yun did try to make us feel special if she 'gave' us such 'opportunities'. Tae Yun would often say that she was hardest only on those who were 'strong', 'connected' with her, or whom she trusted, and whom she loved the most! It made us want to be abused as it 'proved' she cared about us and we were 'worthy'.”
“I left on Nov 1, 2004, so if the event you spoke about above (with the Korean dignateries and 3 am phone call) was in 2004, it must have been late in the year as I don't remember it. Tae Yun did try to make us feel special if she 'gave' us such 'opportunities'. Tae Yun would often say that she was hardest only on those who were 'strong', 'connected' with her, or whom she trusted, and whom she loved the most! It made us want to be abused as it 'proved' she cared about us and we were 'worthy'.”
bemused said, “Carson, I would love to find the posts about the ET class where JW imitated Tae Yun again, but it's a lot of pages to search through, and my time is limited these days. It's too bad Chica took down her posts, because her description was especially vivid, as I recall. She said JW was quite funny, and the class couldn't keep from laughing. It was the laughing that got to Tae Yun. In any case, I think we have been talking about the same class.
“"I punish you because I love you" is an attempted justification common among abusive husbands too. It's also used by right-wing religious schools and drug rehab programs to control children and teenagers using fear.”
“"I punish you because I love you" is an attempted justification common among abusive husbands too. It's also used by right-wing religious schools and drug rehab programs to control children and teenagers using fear.”
Blackheart said, “Hey all, I was actually wondering about joining JSW but it disturbed me that there was the whole cult thing about it, so I did some digging and found this site. Anyways, I had taken some classes at JSW but in Parkour, not martial arts. I had been to a few of the parties that are for students and have spoken with a few of the instructors. The parties are very different from what you'd expect. Tae Yun humiliates her grandmasters in front of everyone and some other stuff that was unsettling for me.
“Personally, I was urged to join the school as a martial arts student instead of only Parkour, even when I said money was an issue, they said they could work something out, maybe work as an intern and get cheaper classes? Anyways, the staff is of course all friendly and charming. But I was able to observe some of the instructor's true character through the charm and I wasn't real pleased. Can someone provide links to ex-JSW/COL/Tae Yun students posting what they had experienced? I'm quite curious haha.”
“Personally, I was urged to join the school as a martial arts student instead of only Parkour, even when I said money was an issue, they said they could work something out, maybe work as an intern and get cheaper classes? Anyways, the staff is of course all friendly and charming. But I was able to observe some of the instructor's true character through the charm and I wasn't real pleased. Can someone provide links to ex-JSW/COL/Tae Yun students posting what they had experienced? I'm quite curious haha.”
bemused said, “Many facts of life in COL caused mild cognitive impairment, which was reversible but chronic. The most common was sleep deprivation. Tae Yun criticized those who pleaded for six hours of sleep, claiming that "her energy" could cause us to need less.
“Very intense exercise without sufficient rest can also cause temporary impairment. Slow exercises such as walking or yoga burn more fat, but the more intense the exercise, the more glucose it burns. The brain runs only on glucose, so intense exercise forces the brain to compete with the muscles.
“I don't think it was intentional in most cases, but our everyday diet was low in protein. At special meals at barbecue parties or restaurants we would eat meat, but most of the time we couldn't afford it. Early on when we got grocery allowances, Scott tried to limit our expenses, and later when we didn't get grocery allowances, we were on our own coping with paltry pay and excessive class fees, which squeezed out expensive foods in our budgets.
“Then there was the intentional infliction of crazy diets or fasts. Occasionally a guest athlete on a special program would be told to eat a lot of meat, but other diets used as punishments, "purifications," or weight loss programs included little or no meat, or even tofu. Some included just rice porridge for weeks on end, or one apple a day and nothing else.
“Finally, there was infliction of emotional distress in the form of humiliation, often in front of a group instructed to agree with Tae Yun. Intense emotion undermines reason. It can also sometimes paradoxically cause euphoria after a while because of the adrenalin, sort of like skydiving does.
“A fully sharp mind is very aware of Reality, including its unpleasant aspects. Cognitive impairment dulls awareness of Reality, which can cause complacency, if not euphoria.”
November 19, 2010
“Very intense exercise without sufficient rest can also cause temporary impairment. Slow exercises such as walking or yoga burn more fat, but the more intense the exercise, the more glucose it burns. The brain runs only on glucose, so intense exercise forces the brain to compete with the muscles.
“I don't think it was intentional in most cases, but our everyday diet was low in protein. At special meals at barbecue parties or restaurants we would eat meat, but most of the time we couldn't afford it. Early on when we got grocery allowances, Scott tried to limit our expenses, and later when we didn't get grocery allowances, we were on our own coping with paltry pay and excessive class fees, which squeezed out expensive foods in our budgets.
“Then there was the intentional infliction of crazy diets or fasts. Occasionally a guest athlete on a special program would be told to eat a lot of meat, but other diets used as punishments, "purifications," or weight loss programs included little or no meat, or even tofu. Some included just rice porridge for weeks on end, or one apple a day and nothing else.
“Finally, there was infliction of emotional distress in the form of humiliation, often in front of a group instructed to agree with Tae Yun. Intense emotion undermines reason. It can also sometimes paradoxically cause euphoria after a while because of the adrenalin, sort of like skydiving does.
“A fully sharp mind is very aware of Reality, including its unpleasant aspects. Cognitive impairment dulls awareness of Reality, which can cause complacency, if not euphoria.”
November 19, 2010
hyeongsa said, “Shadow, clearly the first statement "A person who does what is right, regardless of what another person says" is that of one who is more a warrior and the master of their own life. I might add, this is also indicative of a person of character and integrity. This continues to be a dilemma for those still in COL. You are forced to do things that you know are just plain wrong and to agree with Tae Yun's absurd statements.
“For example, having to apply for and accept unemployment money while working for Lighthouse. You know it is wrong and still, during those years many were doing it. Or, being told to tell someone that they looked great after Tae Yun cut their hair and applied make-up to them, that they looked amazing while in your heart, you know that Tae Yun just made them look really lame. OK, in the second example, maybe it could be excused simply to spare the person's feelings.
“Tae Yun always said we must follow her blindly to show our "trust" in our master. It's one thing to believe in someone and tell them they can kick higher in order to encourage them and get them to strive. Yet it is quite another to get someone to believe that lying, cheating and stealing is OK if it is for Tae Yun's "purpose".
“Everyone there has a conscience and having to constantly not listen to your inner voice telling you "this is wrong" causes a numbing affect as the years go by. This combined with someone constantly dictating every aspect of your life makes for a distorted view of life and Reality. When you leave, this is pretty hard to deal with. You begin to question things and decisions that normal people don't even think twice about.
“I guess you had to be there to understand what I'm talking about. Or, in some kind of other cult. To those who are there and may be reading this, it isn't too late. Next time you meditate, don't put Tae Yun in your mind and focus on her. Instead, ask God to show you the truth and seek Him. Think clearly. Find the real you and separate from the fake warrior Tae Yun has made you to be. Like Shadow's example, which is the true warrior?
“For example, having to apply for and accept unemployment money while working for Lighthouse. You know it is wrong and still, during those years many were doing it. Or, being told to tell someone that they looked great after Tae Yun cut their hair and applied make-up to them, that they looked amazing while in your heart, you know that Tae Yun just made them look really lame. OK, in the second example, maybe it could be excused simply to spare the person's feelings.
“Tae Yun always said we must follow her blindly to show our "trust" in our master. It's one thing to believe in someone and tell them they can kick higher in order to encourage them and get them to strive. Yet it is quite another to get someone to believe that lying, cheating and stealing is OK if it is for Tae Yun's "purpose".
“Everyone there has a conscience and having to constantly not listen to your inner voice telling you "this is wrong" causes a numbing affect as the years go by. This combined with someone constantly dictating every aspect of your life makes for a distorted view of life and Reality. When you leave, this is pretty hard to deal with. You begin to question things and decisions that normal people don't even think twice about.
“I guess you had to be there to understand what I'm talking about. Or, in some kind of other cult. To those who are there and may be reading this, it isn't too late. Next time you meditate, don't put Tae Yun in your mind and focus on her. Instead, ask God to show you the truth and seek Him. Think clearly. Find the real you and separate from the fake warrior Tae Yun has made you to be. Like Shadow's example, which is the true warrior?
Nocvember 20, 2010
Failed Student said, “These are very good observations KungFu4U. In order to be properly brainwashed, the process must be slow, and the effects insidious. The fact that mature persons were drawn in by her sales pitch alleviates my feelings of being easily bamboozled. If she is a grand master in any sense, she's a grand master of the scam.
“I know a lot more about this woman than I have been posting, but everything she did here in Vermont substantiates what you claim about your California experience.
“That analogy of slowly boiling a frog perhaps also reflects her insensitivity, her indifference to the sufferings of others. Yes, there are many ways of describing her psychopathology, and as Thanksgiving approaches, I again thank whatever higher power there is for allowing me to escape from Tae Yun's influence with my sanity and a roof over my head.
“In sum, she's just a garden variety cult leader....the same format as others, just the environment is a bit different. Be glad that you didn't end up in Guyana or a similar location. The only question that remains for me is "how will it all end"?”
“I know a lot more about this woman than I have been posting, but everything she did here in Vermont substantiates what you claim about your California experience.
“That analogy of slowly boiling a frog perhaps also reflects her insensitivity, her indifference to the sufferings of others. Yes, there are many ways of describing her psychopathology, and as Thanksgiving approaches, I again thank whatever higher power there is for allowing me to escape from Tae Yun's influence with my sanity and a roof over my head.
“In sum, she's just a garden variety cult leader....the same format as others, just the environment is a bit different. Be glad that you didn't end up in Guyana or a similar location. The only question that remains for me is "how will it all end"?”
Failed Student said, “I am curious as to Tae Yun's finances. She is living in a multimillion dollar house with expensive ( if not tasteful) furnishings, has a Mercedes, and a vast wardrobe. I wonder if she files a tax return and what amount of income she declares. Maybe she runs this through LWS, but it seems the IRS should look into this.”
bemused said, “I wasn't privy to much financial info, but Tae Yun herself said that everything is in her instructor's names except Lighthouse, which benefits from being a woman- and minority-owned business. You can be sure that if the IRS comes after her, the instructors will take the fall.
“I was asked to deposit one of Tae Yun's paychecks once. I did some quick math in my head and guessed that at the time Tae Yun was being paid about $200K after taxes. That's not unreasonable for the CEO of a small company until you factor in that 1) Lighthouse employees in COL doing white-collar work were making less than $20K, which in the SF Bay Area is barely enough to live on, and 2) Lighthouse is a producer of software and of hardware devices, but Tae Yun is so tech-challenged she can't even use an ATM.”
“I was asked to deposit one of Tae Yun's paychecks once. I did some quick math in my head and guessed that at the time Tae Yun was being paid about $200K after taxes. That's not unreasonable for the CEO of a small company until you factor in that 1) Lighthouse employees in COL doing white-collar work were making less than $20K, which in the SF Bay Area is barely enough to live on, and 2) Lighthouse is a producer of software and of hardware devices, but Tae Yun is so tech-challenged she can't even use an ATM.”
Failed Student said, “Yes but how does she justify a six million dollar house, purchased in cash? At 200K per annum, it would take thirty years to amass that kind of money. And that's only the house...all those furnishings and clothing cost plenty.”
December 21, 2010
bemused said, “The house and car are almost certainly in the instructors' names. The furnishings were almost certainly purchased with instructors' accounts. That's how Tae Yun arranges things. The $200K probably amounted to a clothing allowance, and it has probably increased.”
Failed Student said, “Well, whoever has their names on the deed to the house and the title to the car is irrelevant. Somebody paid millions for the house and plenty for a Mercedes, and the whole arrangement should be looked into. Then there's the matter of people signing over their inheritances to Tae Yun. Isn't that money taxable?”
Bemused said, “I wasn't privy to much financial info, but Tae Yun herself said that everything is in her instructor's names except Lighthouse, which benefits from being a woman- and minority-owned business. You can be sure that if the IRS comes after her, the instructors will take the fall.”
Failed student said, “Her instructors aren't going to get much out of this. The school is probably not turning a profit, the value of the house is going down in this economy, the Mercedes is depreciating, and the only income is drawn from Lighthouse...and I would deduce that things aren't going that well if there are layoffs and the people work there for free while drawing unemployment.”
Kathy Kim said, “Yes, the true Light is Our Lord......to believe that "she" is the light is not only wrong but a mortal sin. For her also. If you are all studing the Catholic religion, because she says she is Catholic now. You know it is wrong. Or is she your confessor? Does she think she can absolve you of your sins? She always read the Bible to fit it to say what she wanted it to mean. To make her feel or be more important. You are all smart, don't believe me, talk to a priest. Happy new years to all. May 2011 bring you many blessings.”
Shadow Dancer said, “Regarding religion and religious messages: "Religion" is like a penis. It is great to have one, it is even ok to be proud of it. But, it isn't ok to whip it out, wave it around, use it as a club, or try to shove it down someone's throat.”
Shadow Dancer said, “COL should realize that they only way they will ever be the 'masters of their lives' is if they leave. You cannot claim control of your life if you are being told: where to sleep, what to eat, what to wear, how to look, who to marry, what job to take, what car to drive, what to study, what to believe, how to vote, etc. A sign of maturity is the ability to make responsible decisions for yourself. The longer you stay with kim, the more of your life slips away.”
bemused said, “Another reason she abuses her students is to test their loyalty, which she feels she can never trust completely. Think about the people you're loyal to who aren't related to you and don't pay you. Why are you loyal? It's because you simply like them, or love them. Kimmie doesn't think she can be loved just for who she is. She thinks she has to perform miracles to be loved. She sees that her students expect miracles, and that the students who cease to believe in her miraculous powers leave. She senses the self-interest under their slavish shows of devotion, and even though she brought it on with all her promises, she resents it.”
Failed Student said, “As was stated, Tae Yun's world is shrinking...and like some rich eccentrics who end up living their lives in a decaying mansion surrounded by memories and past glories, I believe this may come to pass here also.
“I can't feel any pity for her, and as I reviewed those new videos on the JSW website, it struck me that it was all about praise for Tae Yun, and it was unconvincing to me. Her followers are empty robotic beings.
“I also was shocked at the change in appearance of Michael F. and Scott. I know people age, but their skin tone is unhealthy, they have bags under their eyes, and even their eyes themselves appear sunken, unfocused and dead. Even JP has that look about him..eyes staring ahead, expressionless.
“I wonder what prompted Tae Yun to go to Istanbul...other than a probable shopping spree.
“The Kirkwood clip too was an occasion for Tae Yun to show off her expensive snow bunny clothes. I don't think I'd be intimidated by these guys who punch snowbanks and kick at pine branches. Scott doesn't impress me either with that long drawn out yell...wtf?”
“I can't feel any pity for her, and as I reviewed those new videos on the JSW website, it struck me that it was all about praise for Tae Yun, and it was unconvincing to me. Her followers are empty robotic beings.
“I also was shocked at the change in appearance of Michael F. and Scott. I know people age, but their skin tone is unhealthy, they have bags under their eyes, and even their eyes themselves appear sunken, unfocused and dead. Even JP has that look about him..eyes staring ahead, expressionless.
“I wonder what prompted Tae Yun to go to Istanbul...other than a probable shopping spree.
“The Kirkwood clip too was an occasion for Tae Yun to show off her expensive snow bunny clothes. I don't think I'd be intimidated by these guys who punch snowbanks and kick at pine branches. Scott doesn't impress me either with that long drawn out yell...wtf?”
Failed Student said, “Kitty Ki: I have been reading over your posts and need to make a correction to your definition of Tae Yun's ex-husband as being wealthy. He never was, and when I was affiliated for him, his appearance of financial success was based on his use of OPM - Other People's Money.
“In fact, he declared bankruptcy in Vermont. When I sued him, he declared bankruptcy. Had I known that he had a prior bankruptcy, I never would have lent him money for his failed real estate business - EV-R-Green. Perhaps this is one of the reasons he changed his name from Art to Mark when he went to California.”
“In fact, he declared bankruptcy in Vermont. When I sued him, he declared bankruptcy. Had I known that he had a prior bankruptcy, I never would have lent him money for his failed real estate business - EV-R-Green. Perhaps this is one of the reasons he changed his name from Art to Mark when he went to California.”
bemused said, “I have a new theory about Kimmie. Before I've said that she shows signs of the Cluster B personality disorders: narcissistic, antisocial, histrionic, and borderline. But something else might be going on.
“I've been reflecting on learning disabilities lately. I have a cousin who is dyslexic. Another friend may or may not have a learning disability, but he has always struggled with math. Although both of these people are responsible and ethical, there's a correlation between learning disabilities and criminal behavior. It could be that some kids with learning disabilities feel that they've been dealt a bad hand by life and take their frustration out on just about everybody.
“Kimmie can't use an ATM or a computer. She has other people write for her, keep her schedule, manage her money, and so on. She seems to have three talents: martial arts, maintaining a showy personal appearance, and charming/manipulating people. I wonder if perhaps she has some sort of learning disability that, starting in her teens, she compensated for by manipulating other people into doing things for her. Then as time went on, controlling people became an end in itself.”
“I've been reflecting on learning disabilities lately. I have a cousin who is dyslexic. Another friend may or may not have a learning disability, but he has always struggled with math. Although both of these people are responsible and ethical, there's a correlation between learning disabilities and criminal behavior. It could be that some kids with learning disabilities feel that they've been dealt a bad hand by life and take their frustration out on just about everybody.
“Kimmie can't use an ATM or a computer. She has other people write for her, keep her schedule, manage her money, and so on. She seems to have three talents: martial arts, maintaining a showy personal appearance, and charming/manipulating people. I wonder if perhaps she has some sort of learning disability that, starting in her teens, she compensated for by manipulating other people into doing things for her. Then as time went on, controlling people became an end in itself.”
Failed Student said, “Bemused, I would diagnose Tae Yun as a sociopath as well as being a sadist. She certainly fits the deifinition of sociopath, and in my personal observations, a sadist.
“Whenever she could determine what gave one of her students pleasure, she would do her damndest to deny that pleasure to them. In my case, I love tennis - so she tried to get me to give up tennis.
“Most people have an attachment to their familiy members as well as their friends - so she tried to get them to break those ties. She was so effective in that tactic, that Scott among others came to think that their "family" resided in the small confines of her group of disciples, and probably continue to think so to this day. It was frightening and an awakening to me when Scott stated that he minimized his contact with the world "out there", and was only comfortable being with Tae Yun et al. Michael F. also stated that those in the group were his friends...apparently he had detached from the outside world and had no friends outside of the group. Sad..”
“Whenever she could determine what gave one of her students pleasure, she would do her damndest to deny that pleasure to them. In my case, I love tennis - so she tried to get me to give up tennis.
“Most people have an attachment to their familiy members as well as their friends - so she tried to get them to break those ties. She was so effective in that tactic, that Scott among others came to think that their "family" resided in the small confines of her group of disciples, and probably continue to think so to this day. It was frightening and an awakening to me when Scott stated that he minimized his contact with the world "out there", and was only comfortable being with Tae Yun et al. Michael F. also stated that those in the group were his friends...apparently he had detached from the outside world and had no friends outside of the group. Sad..”
Kathy said in regards to vandalism to her property, “I made several police reports....they came after me many times. Yes she really hates me. I knew secrets, and I let them all out. I won an IRS case against her. She tried saying I was a contract employee...they didn't want to pay my taxes. Good thing I keep paperwork..I won the case. She had to pay and was fined. Spencer left her because of her lies. I'm the one that told him, and he confirmed the lies and got the annulment. They tried to scare me and keep me from testifying. That is the main reason she hates me. I showed the police where scott wrote on a piece of paper about FS and checking her out and her car. I also told them who was told to do that. I heard about everyone on the roof looking for me to cause her harm...I proved I was in North Carolina........I wonder who got in trouble for that?”
bemused said, “Ah, the Days of Deep Doo-Doo. At times Kimmie would get upset at everyone in COL for failing her in some way. For example, an event wouldn't go as planned, she would blame COL and tell them to leave her presence, and they would take her literally instead of taking the hint that it was time to grovel. Or too many people would complain to her about COL conditions or about other COL members, Kimmie would feel overly burdened, and she would put everyone on a special "program."
“At these times, COL would be suffering some indignity behind the scenes, such as fasting or not being allowed to talk, but while in martial arts class or at work (before everyone worked at Lighthouse), they would have to pretend that everything was normal. The higher up you were the weirder things were, and the more acting talent it took to fake normalcy. It was somewhat like a domestic violence victim hiding bruises. Maybe COL is going though something like that now.”
“At these times, COL would be suffering some indignity behind the scenes, such as fasting or not being allowed to talk, but while in martial arts class or at work (before everyone worked at Lighthouse), they would have to pretend that everything was normal. The higher up you were the weirder things were, and the more acting talent it took to fake normalcy. It was somewhat like a domestic violence victim hiding bruises. Maybe COL is going though something like that now.”
Failed Student said, “That not being allowed to talk happened here in VT also - I was trying to put up the school sign (ATC at the time) and the poor guy I was working with was on that special program of silence. It was majorly difficult to get the sign up under those circumstances.
“On another occasion, I was working with another student building tables for the Buddhist temple Tae Yun's mother headed. We had to work through the night without speaking, assembling the tables for the following day's service. Totally crazy...no talking, no sleep, no food....That wacko temple is a whole story in itself.”
“On another occasion, I was working with another student building tables for the Buddhist temple Tae Yun's mother headed. We had to work through the night without speaking, assembling the tables for the following day's service. Totally crazy...no talking, no sleep, no food....That wacko temple is a whole story in itself.”
Shadow Dancer said, “At this point in time, I think kimmie is through. Her schtick is becoming blase', there are too many other 'Rolex Reverends' out there vying for the 'pre-enlightened' yuppsters money, and her own behavior is making too much of an impression on would-be contributors. She is no longer important or interesting. She should change her name to: "Little Miss Bossy
Bemused said, “I agree. Her popularity, such as it was, seemed to peak in the mid-90s. It's just too bad that Little Miss Bossy Pants still has minions to boss around. It may be harder to leave now than it was when I did. The economy is bad, they've been in for much of their lives, and LMBP has various ways of trapping them, including marrying them with each other.”
Then Failed Student said, “I should hope as all Tae Yun's minions get older, they get a bit wiser. Even the most brainwashed retain a vestige of Reality, deep in the recesses of their subconscious minds. They may soon, if not already, see her as an aging woman making irrational demands that exceed normal parameters.
“Marriage is not a barrier to leaving either. These are arranged situations and from what I can deduce, not based on any desire to live happily ever after.
“I draw a parallel with North Korea, a country so despotic it boggles the mind. Those living under that regime their entire lives still yearn for freedom and take inordinate risks to cross the border into China. Those living under the iron thumb of Tae Yun are no different in their wants and desires.”
bemused said, “It may be harder to leave now than it was when I did. The economy is bad, they've been in for much of their lives, and LMBP has various ways of trapping them, including marrying them with each other.”
“Marriage is not a barrier to leaving either. These are arranged situations and from what I can deduce, not based on any desire to live happily ever after.
“I draw a parallel with North Korea, a country so despotic it boggles the mind. Those living under that regime their entire lives still yearn for freedom and take inordinate risks to cross the border into China. Those living under the iron thumb of Tae Yun are no different in their wants and desires.”
bemused said, “It may be harder to leave now than it was when I did. The economy is bad, they've been in for much of their lives, and LMBP has various ways of trapping them, including marrying them with each other.”
Shadow Dancer said, “She also has them believing that the outside world is out to get them and that their only safe refuge is with her, as she has mystical abilities to read portents and omens. They are now all absorbed children living in a tree-house believing that they are alone and brave.
“LMBP has gotten them away from the ability to think for themselves. They look to her for advice on what to eat, who to date, what to wear, where to work, where to live, when to wake up, when to go to bed, who to talk to, who to shun, what the bible says, what car to buy, who to donate to, how to vote, etc. The really ironic thing is that they think that they are the masters of their lives. She reinforces her control with alternating hissy-fits and a few words of praise. They literally cannot survive without her. In some ways, they are better off with her now as they are unable to live in the real-world. Taking them away from the only environment they have known for decades would probably cause more harm than good.”
“LMBP has gotten them away from the ability to think for themselves. They look to her for advice on what to eat, who to date, what to wear, where to work, where to live, when to wake up, when to go to bed, who to talk to, who to shun, what the bible says, what car to buy, who to donate to, how to vote, etc. The really ironic thing is that they think that they are the masters of their lives. She reinforces her control with alternating hissy-fits and a few words of praise. They literally cannot survive without her. In some ways, they are better off with her now as they are unable to live in the real-world. Taking them away from the only environment they have known for decades would probably cause more harm than good.”
Failed Student said, “The original ATC logo had six yin yangs (I think in Korean it's "um yang") around the center one..there were six original founders of the school, myself included, although I was the lowest ranking one, by her imperial fiat. I was also the lone female in that elite group. Scott was the only black belt at the time, Michael F. and WHH were I think red belts, DP purple, and I green. I forget the other person's last name, but his first initial was J, and I think he leapfrogged over me in promotion. Of course, Queen Bee was the center um yang.
“The number six is sacred to Tae Yun, and whilst I was still in her good graces, I sat at the round table she had in her office and shared meals with the others. There were seven chairs, and Scott and WHH sat on either side of madame, then those of us with lower ranks, further away. Once I was banished to the gulag (outside her office) for various reasons, primarily no longer financially backing her, that never occurred again.”
“The number six is sacred to Tae Yun, and whilst I was still in her good graces, I sat at the round table she had in her office and shared meals with the others. There were seven chairs, and Scott and WHH sat on either side of madame, then those of us with lower ranks, further away. Once I was banished to the gulag (outside her office) for various reasons, primarily no longer financially backing her, that never occurred again.”
Failed Student said, “The Tae Yun Foundation is not listed in the American Institute of Philanthropy. So who or what is the Tae Yun Foundation? Who are their officers other than Scott, what amount of money do they bring in, what is their administrative overhead as a percentage of their income, etc etc? There should be an annual report with this information available to the public. Save the Children appears to be legit, although some are questioning their fund raising techniques , as in pressuring potential donors.
Shadow Dancer said, “In all honesty, do we really expect kimmie's foundation to be of any benefit other than to her? She needs a continual chorus telling her how generous, or talented, or beautiful, or wise, or skilled she is. She did something similar with the "Just Say No" rally in DC. Everyone was pressured into going out and grovelling for donations. Kimmie marched through the streets of Milpitas with cheering throngs of students behind her. We all then went to DC. She stayed in a glorious hotel and all the minions who did the work got to sleep in a cockroach haven. At the Mall, kimmie shouted her blather and some students broke a few bricks and did a few forms. Kimmie got her photo op, the students got the bill, and no one ever mentioned the "Just Say No" program again, as it had served it's purpose of 'promoting glandmaster'.”
Failed Student said, “Why does this not surprise me? I suspect that the black belt testing and all that nonsense will be just a front for her self- promotion and glorification. I wonder whether there will be a sell out crowd to this farce. or perhaps her students will be pressured to buy multiple tickets just as they were pressured to buy multiple copies of her books when she had her book signings... I hope at least Save the Children gets a creditable amount of proceeds from this. Then again, why did they ever lend their name to this event?”
Failed Student said, “There are tons of martial arts schools in California. I wonder if the general public is willing to pay good money to watch students test for their black belts. Master demonstrations - I suppose it will be the usual breaking stuff which is just a practical application of the laws of physics and no magical "enagee".
“Way back in the dawn of time when Lighthouse was called The Software Group here in Vermont, these same people hired a conference room in the local Radisson Hotel to shill their software which was designed to facilitate the finding of real estate properties for the prospective client as well as determine how much of a mortgage they could afford and what the payments would be. A very few realtors showed up and I was coerced by madame to attend so as to add another warm body to this small gathering. The presentation was embarrassingly childish and I believe they sold only one realtor on the package...which later it turned out, was a bad deal as the software was incompatible with his computer etc etc...and he was pissed as hell.
“So will this supposed fund raiser be another fiasco? I have already donated through a charitable group with sterling creds, so I think I shall decline to attend.”
“Way back in the dawn of time when Lighthouse was called The Software Group here in Vermont, these same people hired a conference room in the local Radisson Hotel to shill their software which was designed to facilitate the finding of real estate properties for the prospective client as well as determine how much of a mortgage they could afford and what the payments would be. A very few realtors showed up and I was coerced by madame to attend so as to add another warm body to this small gathering. The presentation was embarrassingly childish and I believe they sold only one realtor on the package...which later it turned out, was a bad deal as the software was incompatible with his computer etc etc...and he was pissed as hell.
“So will this supposed fund raiser be another fiasco? I have already donated through a charitable group with sterling creds, so I think I shall decline to attend.”
Failed Student said, “In Vermont, Tae Yun (Kyong-Ae) used to squeeze the last drop of energy out of her minions also. There was a Korean master in Florida (who, by the way, had a mail-order PhD) which he proudly displayed at his dojang. Yes, I know his name but will not publish it here..
“Anyhoo, Scott, Michael F., WHH drove from Vermont to Florida to be at the grand opening of his new dojang. They were exhausted from no sleep, but madame made them do some breaking and sparring. It went badly - Scott usually could break bottles, but not on this occasion. The sparring was in slow mo...After the event was over and we had some food that was brought by parents of the students, we headed north - five of us packed into Scott's VW Jetta...non-stop, each of us driving for a few hours. At one point, somewhere around CT, Michael F. did drift off the road but woke up in time, and gave me the wheel. It was one ride from hell from start to finish...somewhere in the south, Scott got a speeding ticket and we paid up on the spot rather than wait for a few days and go to court. What a racket that is, but in truth, he was speeding. Rather than use the interstate to avoid NYC, Scott decided to go through all that traffic, tunnels, and noise, which added a few more unpleasant hours to the trip. Of course, madame snoozed all the way as she did not have to drive. When we finally reached VT, another diversion...instead of getting to our homes, madame decided to go to a local quarry where we (illegally) swam and trained during the summer.
“Of course, I was tricked into even going on this trip...I flew down to FLA with her and was supposed to fly back the next day, but surprise, surprise - her three minions appeared, and I was obligated to take the grueling trip back with them. Not only did I have to stay awake, I had to listen to some damned tape of a Buddhist priest chanting - over and over again, until I thought I would go insane. Talk about brainwashing.”......
“Anyhoo, Scott, Michael F., WHH drove from Vermont to Florida to be at the grand opening of his new dojang. They were exhausted from no sleep, but madame made them do some breaking and sparring. It went badly - Scott usually could break bottles, but not on this occasion. The sparring was in slow mo...After the event was over and we had some food that was brought by parents of the students, we headed north - five of us packed into Scott's VW Jetta...non-stop, each of us driving for a few hours. At one point, somewhere around CT, Michael F. did drift off the road but woke up in time, and gave me the wheel. It was one ride from hell from start to finish...somewhere in the south, Scott got a speeding ticket and we paid up on the spot rather than wait for a few days and go to court. What a racket that is, but in truth, he was speeding. Rather than use the interstate to avoid NYC, Scott decided to go through all that traffic, tunnels, and noise, which added a few more unpleasant hours to the trip. Of course, madame snoozed all the way as she did not have to drive. When we finally reached VT, another diversion...instead of getting to our homes, madame decided to go to a local quarry where we (illegally) swam and trained during the summer.
“Of course, I was tricked into even going on this trip...I flew down to FLA with her and was supposed to fly back the next day, but surprise, surprise - her three minions appeared, and I was obligated to take the grueling trip back with them. Not only did I have to stay awake, I had to listen to some damned tape of a Buddhist priest chanting - over and over again, until I thought I would go insane. Talk about brainwashing.”......
Kitrty Ki wrote about going to the Korean Fashion Show and Cultural Living Treasure award in 1996.
bemused said, “I was there. Kimmie wanted the COL women to help the models backstage. I couldn't bring myself to do it because I was horrified at how skeletal they were. As I recall Blondie KS gained brownie points by being really good at helping the models. One good thing to come out of that day was that my envy of fashion models ceased that day, never to return. But I digress.
“It did seem really odd that Kimmie was usurping a fashion show to get this award. I wondered what was in it for the KBC, or whatever that organization was. I thought it was Seon Productions, the same people who did the Romancercize videos, but my memory could be fuzzy. Maybe they thought Kimmie was as important as she said she was.
“As I recall, Carson was with a few people who flew to LA. They all shared a hotel room, unbeknown to the hotel, and used sleeping bags. I was with this non-COL family who drove their giant RV down. They also drove all night on the return trip.”
“It did seem really odd that Kimmie was usurping a fashion show to get this award. I wondered what was in it for the KBC, or whatever that organization was. I thought it was Seon Productions, the same people who did the Romancercize videos, but my memory could be fuzzy. Maybe they thought Kimmie was as important as she said she was.
“As I recall, Carson was with a few people who flew to LA. They all shared a hotel room, unbeknown to the hotel, and used sleeping bags. I was with this non-COL family who drove their giant RV down. They also drove all night on the return trip.”
Failed Student
Talk about crazy stuff KitTae Yuni - “Your comment about Tae Yun asking Willie Brown about his "junk" reminds me of the time we went to Florida for a tournament sponsored by the master Tae Yun knew there. On the plane trip back, she saw an older gentleman and struck up a conversation with him - asked him how old he was (60) and then flattered him, saying how young he looked. She then had him pose for a picture with her and a few of her senior students. He did look a bit dumbfounded but went along with it anyway.
“Also on that trip back, Michael F. stood at the front aisle of the plane and announced to everyone that we had just been to a tournament. Yeah, he got some applause, but I think it took a lot of nerve to impose oneself on a captive audience like that, but that seems to be their modus.
“On another occasion, at one of the testings at her dojang, Tae Yun got some 85 or so year old woman off the street to come in and watch the testing as a guest. Poor dear, she was incontinent of urine and a bit daft in the head, but anyway.........
“We also went to a tournament in Connecticut, and Tae Yun and I shared a real hotel room. Michael F. and DP were going to sneak in and sleep there too. I do have a sense of honesty, and so I paid for a room for them as well as my own. I do not believe in cheating...and I believe Integrity is one of the tenets of the martial arts code of honor. (CIPSI) All the other students slept in sleeping bags on the floor of a local dojang - about 50 in all - and one bathroom. Well, at least they could have a buffet breakfast at the hotel we were staying at.”
“Also on that trip back, Michael F. stood at the front aisle of the plane and announced to everyone that we had just been to a tournament. Yeah, he got some applause, but I think it took a lot of nerve to impose oneself on a captive audience like that, but that seems to be their modus.
“On another occasion, at one of the testings at her dojang, Tae Yun got some 85 or so year old woman off the street to come in and watch the testing as a guest. Poor dear, she was incontinent of urine and a bit daft in the head, but anyway.........
“We also went to a tournament in Connecticut, and Tae Yun and I shared a real hotel room. Michael F. and DP were going to sneak in and sleep there too. I do have a sense of honesty, and so I paid for a room for them as well as my own. I do not believe in cheating...and I believe Integrity is one of the tenets of the martial arts code of honor. (CIPSI) All the other students slept in sleeping bags on the floor of a local dojang - about 50 in all - and one bathroom. Well, at least they could have a buffet breakfast at the hotel we were staying at.”
bemused said, “Kimmie has this need to take her audience with her everywhere. Most of the time it's not enough just to take one or two assistants. Perhaps she doesn't really trust that people outside her inner circle will admire her properly unless her own acolytes show them how. She wants the equivalent of cheerleaders, or a claque in an opera audience.
“Her accommodations are always better than those of her followers, partly because of her sense of entitlement and partly because the class fees she charges leave her followers broke. And she thinks she's being generous by "allowing" people to go with her.
“She loves it when she can attract attention from strangers, and she's not too picky. When she was younger, she could do it with her looks. Now she does it by looking over-the-top flashy. In places like Instabul, signs of wealth get attention. Here, she has to settle for brazen tackiness.”
“Her accommodations are always better than those of her followers, partly because of her sense of entitlement and partly because the class fees she charges leave her followers broke. And she thinks she's being generous by "allowing" people to go with her.
“She loves it when she can attract attention from strangers, and she's not too picky. When she was younger, she could do it with her looks. Now she does it by looking over-the-top flashy. In places like Instabul, signs of wealth get attention. Here, she has to settle for brazen tackiness.”
Failed Student said, “But since we're on the subject of calling someone out Jacob et al - Back in the day of the Software Group in Vermont, Scott was trying to get me entrapped into this entity. He told me that they needed "x" number of dollars to buy computers, and then a few days later, he changed his story to say that they needed the money for something else. When I told him about that change, he said that he "felt I would be more comfortable" with the second explanation. So in effect, Scott is a liar, and expresses no guilt about it. Anything to serve his master....
“You have no idea how every day I thank whatever higher power there is that I did not succumb to this nonsense Scott spewed. He even told me that if I joined the Software Group, give them my money, that "they would take care of me". I now think the way they would have taken care of me would be to take my money and then throw me out in the street. If now Scott and his master find themselves in financial difficulties, I will regard this as karmic justice.”
“You have no idea how every day I thank whatever higher power there is that I did not succumb to this nonsense Scott spewed. He even told me that if I joined the Software Group, give them my money, that "they would take care of me". I now think the way they would have taken care of me would be to take my money and then throw me out in the street. If now Scott and his master find themselves in financial difficulties, I will regard this as karmic justice.”
Failed Student said, “Generally speaking, dinners are more expensive than lunches, even though the menu is the same. They tack on for ambiance or whatever. If you had to pay Tae Yun directly for the meal, rather than the restaurant, then probably she did pocket a bit.
“We bought our doboks et al from Tae Yun. At the time, she paid about 16 dollars for them and we were charged 30. Same for the jackets we had our arms twisted to buy - cost 58, charged 75.
“Tae Yun's parents had a store where they sold imported Asian foods as well as dobuks and belts. Tae Yun bypassed them and made her profit, thereby cutting off her own family from some income. By accident, UPS once delivered a box of dobuks to the store which was meant instead for Tae Yun's dojang, (ATC) and her mother had a hissy fit about it. Not to worry though, Scott and the rest of them bought most of their food through the store, so all was not lost. Of course, they lived mostly on rice, ramen, and kimchi..”
“We bought our doboks et al from Tae Yun. At the time, she paid about 16 dollars for them and we were charged 30. Same for the jackets we had our arms twisted to buy - cost 58, charged 75.
“Tae Yun's parents had a store where they sold imported Asian foods as well as dobuks and belts. Tae Yun bypassed them and made her profit, thereby cutting off her own family from some income. By accident, UPS once delivered a box of dobuks to the store which was meant instead for Tae Yun's dojang, (ATC) and her mother had a hissy fit about it. Not to worry though, Scott and the rest of them bought most of their food through the store, so all was not lost. Of course, they lived mostly on rice, ramen, and kimchi..”
Failed Student said, I just checked the Santa Clara Convention Center events schedule, and Tae Yun's demo/testing is not on there. I think if it is to happen, it may be contingent on advance sales revenue being sufficient to give them a deposit, and so far the results of their advertising haven't produced much. (Just some rational speculation on my part).
“Perhaps all former students and their friends will be invited to attend so it will look like a big success, but either the invitees will have to pay their own way or the voucher givers (students) will have to ante up. There is probably a big push going on within JSW to get students to get those vouchers out there, and probably some kind of a prize for the person that gives out the most vouchers...woe betide the laggard that gives out the fewest.
“Perhaps all former students and their friends will be invited to attend so it will look like a big success, but either the invitees will have to pay their own way or the voucher givers (students) will have to ante up. There is probably a big push going on within JSW to get students to get those vouchers out there, and probably some kind of a prize for the person that gives out the most vouchers...woe betide the laggard that gives out the fewest.
“The JSW website doesn't give the details I am looking for concerning the prizes. For instance, that trip to Hawaii - is it a plane ticket, or hotel accomodations, or both? And how long a stay is included in that trip? I want some specifics .
“This raffle is an inducement to bring in students. I think it also departs from the original concept of martial arts training and cheapens it by dangling lures of money and other prizes. The old masters must be turning in their graves.”
“This raffle is an inducement to bring in students. I think it also departs from the original concept of martial arts training and cheapens it by dangling lures of money and other prizes. The old masters must be turning in their graves.”
Failed Student said, “I see the JSW website has been updated with some more hype. It is interesting however, that the video shows the Tae Yun of perhaps twenty five years ago, and wearing the ATC patch on her dobuk. She certainly has changed in appearance (as many of us have in that period of time), but still I find it a bit disingenuous to show a younger version of Tae Yun and not the heavier, fuller faced, zaftig person she is today.
“Well, now we know who the special guest is - Lou Gossett Jr. I enjoyed him very much in "Enemy Mine" as the alien that befriended the Earthling. I had thought the special guest might be "The Governator" but I guess he has problems of his own at the moment.”
“Well, now we know who the special guest is - Lou Gossett Jr. I enjoyed him very much in "Enemy Mine" as the alien that befriended the Earthling. I had thought the special guest might be "The Governator" but I guess he has problems of his own at the moment.”
The testing and masters exhibition is now on the Santa Clara Convention Center web site but the academy continues to search desperaterly for students. Kitty Ki has since been harassed by the Jung SuWon leaders for posting on Bullshido and will no longer post there. Meanwhile, the sycophants continue to inquest as to who posts on the site while calling ex students to come to their ceremony in July, but if they refuse the leaders figure they must have posted bad things about Tae Yun or else they would love to come. They are being insane.
COL still exists as a secret organization doing business as Stargazer or the Tae Yun foundation.
The Cult of COL according to Bullshido, Part 12
Failed Student said, “Hey Bemused, how about me! I was part of Tae Yun's inner circle too at the beginning, but after I ran out of money and I became too independent of her, I was suspended/expelled on a flimsy excuse.
“So before I hobble off into infirmity, I just want you all to know that Tae Yun did give the other four very intense training, sometimes lasting through the night, and I was able to go home, have a glass of wine, relax, and forget about it all for a while.
“Her predecessor company, The Software Group, was a freaking disaster from the get-go, never made enough money to pay anyone, and did not fulfill their commitments to their customers, few as they were. Their software was incompatible with the customers computers, some of their programs just did not work, and their Bible - themed video games went nowhere in the market. No wonder they left Vermont under the cover of darkness, leaving a multitude of debts behind.”
bemused said, “I'm sorry, Failed Student. I didn't meet you until I had been out for years, and all the time I was in I only heard about whoever was still in. So it's habit. I'm sure that now Tae Yun only talks about Scott and Michael F. having been there in the beginning, because WHH and DKP (whom you apparently knew as RL) left.
“Lighthouse started out as a software consulting firm, with Scott and DKP doing most of the engineering work.
“I worked as a technical writer through Lighthouse for a few years. It wasn't quite the mess that The Software Group was, but it was still kind of a seat-of-the-pants operation.
“Most of the Lighthouse contractors at that time were software testers, because it was fairly easy to perform in a testing job if you had any talent for it. Normally you need a degree in a computer-related field, but people simply lied on their resumes. No one got caught as far as I know.
“When Shadow Dancer suggested that Lighthouse make a monitoring system for the clean room at Komag, Lighthouse got lucky. No one had thought to bring all clean room sensor data into one real-time display before. So after they sold the system to Komag, they started marketing it successfully to many other companies that manufactured in clean rooms.”
Failed Student said, “Hey, not to worry Bemused. I'm just a ghost from the past and apparently Tae Yun's worst nightmare, because I know the origins of this cult.
hyeongsa said, “JP is naturally talented although he lost a tournament a few years back when Tae Yun was attempting to get him into the Olympics. Like everything else she starts or promises, it never happens for what ever the reason. After he lost she moved him on to work in the shipping dept of LWS.
“He is an "instructor" as he has been promoted above most of the adults who had been training for over a decade. Probably so Tae Yun can have some young blood to show off.
“I hear LWS is hurting during this economic downturn. The way she spends money it must be hard and stressful to meet her demands. Those that live in the area claim to see a lot of cars parked outside her LWS building at all hours including Saturday and Sunday. For anyone who has have been there, this means work instead of class thus fewer senior instructors to lead the classes at JSW.
“Failed Student fortunately you have surfaced and shared what happened in Vermont. You are somewhat a "missing link" and provide the truth as to what really happened there instead of Tae Yun's lies. Thank you from all of us.”
Failed Student said, “Well Hyeongsa, it has been my pleasure to contribute to this thread. Obviously I am not aware of what's happening out there in the internal workings of Tae Yun and her flunkies, but every once in a while I see a parallel to what is posted by you and others and something that happened back here.
"Missing Link" eh? I will not take offense at that since I get your gist, but it does have certain anthropological connotations.
bemused said, “Failed Student said, I will confess that for a few years I wrote Lighthouse's manuals for free on evenings and weekends while working another tech writing job during the day. You were smarter than I was.
“What I found most frustrating, though, was not the lack of pay, but the lack of appreciation. I learn and write very quickly. I was so efficient that Tae Yun and the other COLies concluded that what I was doing must have been easy. DKP was an exception, but he left after a few years.
“Tae Yun wants you to accomplish your tasks well and on time, but she wants to see you working lots of overtime to do it. The harder you work and the more you suffer, the more she thinks you're really dedicated and loyal. If you're working smart and have more free time that you fill with other things, even if they're meditation or working out, well, that means either your workload isn't heavy enough or you're just plain lazy.
“Some COLies used this to their advantage though. "I have to catch up at Lighthouse" became the best excuse to get out of COL classes where someone was being punished, COL2 or COL3 house meetings, or any other unpleasant activity.”
hyeongsa said, “Tae Yun will never allow her devoted COL followers to have children. She says if you want children you are selfish. In Reality, she does not want to compete with any children as they get in the way of her being in full control of her "students". There is a lot of information about how the children who grew up there were treated as we read in Chica's posts. In due time more stories will be told.
“The Tae Yun cult continues to be involved in various lawsuits against them. Here is one:
Particle Measuring Systems v Lighthouse Worldwide Solutions Filed on 12-9-09 in Federal Court, Denver CO on a Patent Infringement
“This info can be googled. Of course they are innocent until proven guilty but history shows that Tae Yun will cheat any way she can for money and power. How greedy.”
bemused said, “Funny, when I was in COL, Tae Yun said that someday, when we built COL City, we could all have families. I guess she has given up that fantasy.
Having children is "selfish"? Hmmm... Just ask any parent how much self-sacrifice is involved. Tae Yun is the selfish one.
bemused said, “I don't think pretty women are more likely to be victims than less attractive women in general. But a leader with considerable power can choose whomever he wants. I heard that one cult leader even had an assistant who would bring him a disciple for his nightly pleasure based on the physical attributes for which he was in the mood.
“And when I was in Tae Yun's cult, I noticed that the Korean businessmen who visited Jung Suwon or Lighthouse had a preference for blondes. For a while, Tae Yun had KS, a very pretty young blonde, do a lot of her PR work with the Koreans. I don't think KS did anything improper. I just think Tae Yun knew that Korean men would respond to KS's appearance in a way that made them easier to manipulate.”
Kathy Kim said, “Can't wait to see the article in TKD saying what a great honor it is for her. It is just as false as she is. It looks like you are smarter than Scott, (Scott), Shadow Dancer. He should of done his homework before he spent all that money to get her award. bs meets bs ......no one could be more deserving of it than her......one fake to another
Kathy Kim said, “her birthday is coming up. I always remember it as it is on Groundhog day. I'm surprised no one has gotten her that title. Let's see, what do you get for a 64 year old that has "almost" all she ever wanted? Oops it must even be beyond her reach. Because she can't buy it, bribe it, or steal it. I do know of one thing coming her way...Karma.”
Bemused spoke of doublethink. PP has summarized it. Doublethink is to say one thing and think another, meaning the same thing but really there is another meaning only you know and your version is completely different than the one you present to change the receiver’s thinking.
“I remember an Energy Training class in which Tae Yun was criticizing COL for revealing to non-COL students that maybe we weren't always peacefully content. All of a sudden Sarah K. got the concept and was very excited, as if she had made an important discovery. I don't remember her exact words, but they went something like this:
“I'm aware of my issues but I also project the happiness I feel!
“This was an especially clear and concise example of doublethink. As for me, I always had difficulty with thoughts like this. Tae Yun would sometimes tell me, sarcastically, "You too smart for me." I guess she was right.”
bemused said, “I would like to clarify what it was about Sarah K.'s statement than made it an example of doublethink. Again: I'm aware of my issues but I also project the happiness I feel!
“It's not that she had mixed emotions, which are normal. It's that she was "projecting" only one of those emotions. She thought that being "aware" of her other emotions made this all right.
“What she simultaneously knew and didn't know was that she was lying.
“She would have been more consistent had she been unaware of her "issues." If she had been unconscious of her negative emotions, she would not have been lying by hiding them from other people. But to achieve that, she would have had to go from doublethink to dissociation, which is a much deeper split in the mind.
“I don't mean to pick on Sarah K.. There was a lot of doublethink going on in COL, and some dissociation too. I was not immune. Although doublethink tended and still tends to make my brain hurt, I was repressing some of my emotions.
“During my last two years in COL I would have crying spells for no apparent reason. It took me a while to realize that I wasn't feeling what I was supposed to feel. Although I was surrounded by people who supposedly cared about me and was rarely alone, I felt lonely. Although I was a black belt, a full-time employee of Lighthouse, and a COL member, supposedly at the center of everything Tae Yun had going on, I felt alienated. Although martial arts students seemed to like my instruction and Lighthouse customers liked my manuals and training, I felt unappreciated and disrespected by Tae Yun and COL.
“I left for a number of reasons, including wanting to make my own music, hearing that the BB lawsuit involved more money than I'd realized, and hearing Tae Yun say the same thing about an insinuated affair with an instructor that a yoga cult leader had said about a sexual harassment accusation ("Think of all the wonderful energy they're getting"). But I think one of the deeper reasons was that I found I enjoyed the company of people outside of COL more than that of those in COL.
“In other words, I wasn't aware of contradictory thoughts, but my thoughts and feelings didn't match. What was supposed to make me happy didn't.”
Ryanbeld said, “I worked it out with my mom where I would hold back on the posts. but I can no longer do so after reading her praises for kim all the time on facebook.. Its like a slap in my face. Its basically like calling me a liar. I poured out my heart and real experiences and her constant praise of Kim just shows me she either doesn’t believe a word I say or just doesn’t care. maybe both.”
bemused said, “Your mom's words and actions are another good example of doublethink. She has "I love my master" and "I love my kids" tracks in her mind, and she somehow manages to rationalize away the inconsistencies. She does love you, and I'm sure she believes you to a degree, but I'll bet she thinks you're suffering because you've been influenced by some dark force and that if you'd just rejoin COL, you'd be fine.
“It's also possible that deep down she envies your freedom, but that she can't even come close to admitting this to herself.
“People tend to loudly proclaim things about which they are secretly uncertain or guilty but that they want desperately to believe or make others believe. As Shakespeare famously wrote, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." By the way, is your mom's Facebook page public?
“Your mom's greatest tragedy is the doublethink she has in regard to how Tae Yun treats her. If anyone else treated her that way, I'm sure your mom would feel like a slave. But Tae Yun keeps telling her how privileged she is to take all that abuse. I'm not sure your mom has enough self-esteem to escape this mental prison, and of course Tae Yun wants to keep her that way.
“I feel terrible about how you, your sister, and the other COL kids were neglected. I am also very proud of all of you for finding your way out. I rejoice at your freedom and resilience. Living well is the best revenge.”
bemused said, “Ryanbeld, your sister Chicabonita recently told me that your mom seems like two people, one a kimbot (my word, I just made it up) and one a normal mom.
I thought a section from Steven Hassan's book Combating Cult Mind Control, entitled "Dual Identity: The Key to Understanding Cult Members," might shed some light on your mom's behavior. This dual identity isn't multiple personality disorder; it's just a really bad case of doublethink.
“A member of a mind control cult is at war with himself. Therefore, when dealing with a cult member, it is extremely important to keep in mind that he has two identities....
Ordinarily, only one of these two selves occupies the consciousness at a time. The personality on duty most of the time is the cult identity. Only intermittently does the old identity reappear.
“It is essential for family members to sensitize themselves to the differences between the two identity patterns, in terms of both content (what the person talks about) and communication patterns (the way he speaks and acts). Each one looks and sounds distinctively different.
“When [the cult identity] is talking, his speech is...like a tape recording of a cult lecture....His posture will typically be more rigid, his facial muscles tighter. His eyes will tend to strike family members as glassy, cold, or glazed, and he will often seem to stare through people.
“On the other hand, when [the old identity] is talking he will speak with a greater range of emotion. He will be more expressive and will share his feelings more willingly. He will be more spontaneous and may even show a sense of humor. His posture and musculature will appear to be looser and warmer. Eye contact will be more natural.
“Such a stark description of a divided personality may seem too simplistic, but it is amazingly accurate. It's an eerie experience to be talking with someone and sense that while you are in mid-sentence, a different personality has taken over his body. Recognizing the change, and acting appropriately, is the key to unlocking the person's real self and freeing it from the cult's bondage....
“As much as cult indoctrination attempts to destroy and suppress the old identity, and empower the new identity, it almost never totally succeeds. Good experiences and positive memories rarely disappear entirely. Of course, the cult identity will try to bury former reference points and submerge the person's past. Yet, over time, the old self exerts itself and seeks out ways to regain its freedom.
“The process is speeded up by positive exposure to non-members and the accumulation of bad experiences he has while in the group.”
Carson said, “Hi Bemused! The descriptions of the doublethink you've written about are so true. While I was in COL I worked very hard to rationalize the insanity, making excuses to myself as to why Tae Yun acted as she did, and convincing myself that any feelings of confusion and any doubt were because of my own failings.
“Towards the end, however, I just couldn't rationalize it any more, and one last session of Tae Yun's screaming sessions sent me over the edge.
“Even so, I tried to come back, but on my terms. I wanted a raise so I could afford to live on my own in a studio apartment. I objected to the plan to have me continue working 90+ hrs a week (my actual work hours would be reduced somewhat so I could attend engineering courses in my 'free' time, courses which Scott determined I should take) Of course, I was put on a 'program' to rethink my position. After two weeks I left - all the more sure I needed to leave for good rather than seeing 'the errors of my ways.'
“After I left it took a long time to rediscover who I was. I no longer knew what sorts of things I enjoyed or what I wanted. I experimented with a lot of thinks - hikes in the woods, volunteering on community projects, gardening, reading, making jewelry, taking classes at the junior college.
“Gradually, I started to find things that gave me true joy and fulfillment. It was amazing how certain things would trigger me back into the double-think. At first they happened all the time. Over time, the triggers happened less and less frequently. I will still, rarely, have one hit once in a while, and I may never actually be free of them, but I know what they are, and I can see then and let them go.
My life is so much more fulfilling now, and I have never regretted having left.”
bemused said, “Wow, Carson, you dared to demand more of Tae Yun than anyone else I know of except perhaps Adam G (but of course, he had some special leverage there for a while). I'll bet Tae Yun just hated that.
“Chicabonita said, “ said, “ you also dared to tell off Tae Yun when she got the screaming mee-mees that fateful night. I wish I'd had the guts to do that when I left. (The most I managed to do was write in my journal, "Grandmaster doesn't handle disagreement well." I hope that at least made her squirm for a second.) Your boldness probably helped you recover.
“I too have triggers. If I let myself get too tired, I sometimes slip into the same emotional state I was in while in COL. For a minute I'm a different person in a different Reality, then I come back. I can't tolerate too much egotism, charm, or authoritarianism in a leader. I get acutely uncomfortable and have to leave. It took me a while to be able to sit through a church service (which I sometimes have to do because my mother-in-law is, in her own way, devout).
“One of the things Tae Yun promises that her students will attain is joy. I had some good times in COL, but really, compared to what Tae Yun promised, it wasn't much. I too have found more happiness after leaving COL, from love, friendship, music, helping people, and even work.”
bemused said, “Kimmie has already done that in at least one instance. Kimmie presided over MountEverestGirl's "marriage" to Scott. Apparently it wasn't legal, though, because according to Chicabonita said, “, MountEverestGirl's tax returns in the following years listed her marital status as single.
Bemused said, “Kimmie seems to handle such marriages on a case-by-case basis, though. I've heard that Michael F. was due to inherit some money on the condition that he was married. So his marriage to KSW was legal (they have since divorced).
“TCS and Sarah K. were legally married in Sarah K.'s hometown, from what I heard. I don't know about Michael F. and HC, but the video sure was interesting, with HC thanking Kimmie for giving her the confidence to go through with it.
“I also heard that KH and AS tied the knot, or were planning to. They're a rather odd couple, not because they're of different races, but because KH used to be an open lesbian.
“These approved COL partnerships seem to be the exception, though. Kimmie would rather keep most of her followers as sexually frustrated and lonely as possible. She doesn't want any two of them to become more loyal to each other than they are to her.
I had a Kimmie-approved relationship with CA for a while. He was overseas most of the time. When he came home for short stretches, I saw him for a few hours at most each time. Then he started getting really skittish around me.
“I found out through the short-lived cultmaster.com website that CA was seeing prostitutes while overseas. Having a serious relationship with someone outside of COL can get you kicked out, but apparently if it's only sex you just get punished until you beg for forgiveness.
Carson said, “FYI - Tae Yun said that MT and I should get married at the same time as Sarah K. & TCS. We were told to have large weddings and to tell all guests to give money instead of gifts. Sarah K.s family was wealthy, and they were happy to give a large, expensive wedding. Tae Yun even chose the china pattern for those who wished to give physical gifts. The china was, of course, given to Tae Yun, as I presume the $ was as well. After the wedding, Tae Yun had Sarah K. show the other gifts they had received, with Tae Yun making fun of each and telling Sarah K. to sell it on eBay. I don't know how much $ was eventually turned over to Tae Yun as a result of all the gifts.
“My parents said they wouldn't pay for a wedding as it was my second (my first had ended in divorce, at Tae Yun's recommendation). My parents said I was to have a small wedding and to tell the guests no gifts. Since this was going to cost $ rather than be a money-making deal, Tae Yun called off the engagement for MT & myself. Looking back I see how lucky I was to still be single; it made walking away a little bit easier.”
Carson said, “I've had people ask how intelligent people can get sucked in by cults. It starts out with little things that can be easily believed. As the lies get bigger and bigger, it's not so much that they are believed, or even that one wants to believe them. Rather, it's the fear of what would happen if they are true and you don't believe? Tae Yun doesn't have to convince everyone that what she says is the truth, she only has to instill enough doubt that one is afraid to go against her.
“When I left I had gotten to the point where I didn't care anymore whether I lived or died. At that point I had nothing more to lose by leaving (though she still tried to pull the eternal damnation scare).
“Bemused what you said about ES is very true - I cared for and respected her more than anyone else in COL, and I know she truly cared about others and her kids very much. But Tae Yun had her totally believing that she was worth nothing, so ES would do whatever Tae Yun to the best of her ability, even when Tae Yun was beating her and locked her outside for days on end. ES has had to put her trust completely in Tae Yun in order to do the things to others that she has done. To see Tae Yun for what she is, ES would have to then accept all the things that she has done to others as her fault, for having followed Tae Yun without question. But they aren't her fault, she is as much a victim as anyone, and probably much more so.
bemused said, “Carson, what you wrote about Sarah K. and TCS vs. you and MT speaks volumes. What it boils down to is that Tae Yun only allows a marriage when there's something in it for her. My parents caught on early that they shouldn't give me money, which may partly explain why CA & I never set a date.
“I agree with what you say about Tae Yun's manipulation of belief and doubt. I would only add that being in a cult can mean wanting to believe some things, in order to remain a member in good standing and to keep alive those beautiful illusions cult leaders are so good at painting. The promise of meeting emotional needs hooks the heart and brings the mind with it.
“You may have felt like you didn't care if you lived or died when you left, but your leaving shows clearly that underneath it all you wanted to live. It might not have seemed like it at times, but I respected you as much as I respected ES, and when I left I hoped you would find your way out. I'm very glad you did.
“Ah, the eternal damnation scare. The irony of it is that every cult leader pulls this one, yet they can't all be the only guide to salvation.
“Tae Yun beat ES and locked her outside for days? At this point nothing that Tae Yun does shocks me, but I'm still capable of outrage. It just goes to show that Tae Yun treats people as wretchedly as their "trust" in her permits her to. Tae Yun has reinvented the classic trauma-inducing alternation of flattery and flogging. It's a lot like the cycle of violence to which battered women are subjected. And to add insult to injury, I'll bet Scott did nothing to protect ES.
“I agree that ES is a victim. I think ES has some accountability, but Tae Yun should get 90% of the blame for acts committed in her name.”
Failed Student said, “I also heard that KH and AS tied the knot, or were planning to. They're a rather odd couple, not because they're of different races, but because KH used to be an open lesbian.
“This is obviously a marriage of convenience. Never mind that sexual orientation is determined by genetics, kimmie. Yeah, go ahead, throw any two people together for appearances' sake, or maybe you can guilt trip the lesbian into a marriage and then tell people you "cured" her. Be sure and humiliate her publicly too, as a part of one of your demonstrations as you blather about how great you are. You make me want to puke, bitch.”
hyeongsa said, “Carson said, remember when you spoke up in the break room at "Strawberry Field"? You had the courage to confront Tae Yun on many of the things that most everyone else had been thinking for years. It was jaw dropping to say the least.
“What you may not know is what happened after that as a result of your speaking up. You truly got to her and she was quite beside herself. For example, the part about how you and all of COL respond to her by saying what we were "expected" to say was hitting a bulls eye. Imagine that, for Tae Yun to wonder if every "yes ma'am" she hears isn't genuine or all the rest of the BS we had to spew when put on the spot in front of class or her friends at a dinner party about how she "saved" us.
“Thank you for what you did that day. Besides, everyone could see how she took advantage of you and all your hard work at LWS. Your contributions were major yet you were rarely recognized for your efforts.
“Tae Yun met with COL later that night (remember she took us all out of the room) and screamed at us because no one in the room stopped you from speaking your mind to her. Hmmm, wonder why? Perhaps it is because we all agreed, duh Tae Yun. The senior instructors took the brunt of her lashing out at us and as a result from that day forward anyone who dared even hint at TKY being less that god-like was shouted down by others in the group.
“I guess she would rather have others put up her fight and sit and listen to them sing her praises instead of listening to her closest students express their mind and frustration. Can you imagine trying to express yourself and having everyone else in your face shouting you down? This took COL class to a new and even weirder level. Worse yet, if someone does not come to her defense, they too become a target.
“Bemused said, wish you had been there. I would be interested on your take with the cult aspect of all this.”
Failed Student said, “Tae Yun is spinning out of control. Apparently this event took place a few years ago, so if I follow the line from how she was in Vermont to that event you mention till today, it must be like living in an insane asylum by now.
“I wonder why people allow themselves to live in fear of a pint size tyrant, other than there is group pressure to conform and allow this to happen. Perhaps too, all those years of living in an alternate universe has separated her followers from Reality. What a tragedy.”
bemused said, “So far, my Insider Pages review is still up. Not only that, but already "2 out of 2 people found this review helpful."
“Thanks, Hyeongsa for describing Tae Yun's reaction to being told off by Carson. It's consistent with what Anthony Storr says about gurus in his book Feet of Clay. I don't remember the exact words, but it's something like, "Gurus consider anything less than total agreement to be equivalent to hostility."
“How ironic that Tae Yun tells her students, "Learn from your mistakes." They can do it, but she sure can't.
“Her unwillingness to hear any negative feedback leads her to do some really stupid things, such as wandering around a semiconductor trade show in a mini skirt playing the flute, or proudly displaying an award from the Moonies.
“Tae Yun's insisting that other people defend her in disagreements could imply a number of things. Maybe she's so irrational that she couldn't come up with her own logical counterargument to save her life. Maybe deep down she's so unsure of her students' loyalty that she needs them to prove it at the slightest sign of doubt. Maybe her need to project the image of a serene master leads her to insist that others get nasty for her. I'd vote for all of the above.”
Kathy said, “As we all know Tae Yun pits everyone against everyone. Deep down she doesn't trust anyone. Must be because she knows if we really know or knew her, you wouldn't trust anything she says. Nothing will ever make her happy or complete. Probably why she needs all those fake titles. She is an empty person. A note to all those in col...Nothing you give her for her 64th birthday will be what she really needs. Even so, I will keep her in my prayers.”
bemused said, “Like everyone else, Tae Yun wants to be loved. She expends a great deal of effort creating an image that she thinks is utterly lovable. She also expends effort carefully selecting and training people to love that image. Such effort reveals that she secretly doubts her lovability; people who are confident of their lovability don't go to such extremes.
“Because she expends so much effort, she feels entitled to be loved. If people she hasn't trained fail to love her, she can dismiss them as inferior people, but not in public, where her lovable image could be compromised. If people she has trained fail to love her, she feels justified in punishing them in private. She reframes her punishment as an expression of her love for them, both to get them to accept the punishment and to preserve her lovable image in their eyes.
“None of this works. The greater the gap between the lovable image she creates and her real self becomes, the more her doubt about her lovability grows. The more doubt she feels, the more she tries to perfect her lovable image and the more love she demands. None of the love ever reaches her. It never gets past her image.
“What's worse, those who see past her image to the deceitful, conniving, vindictive aspects of her personality stop loving her. This adds to her secret doubt, her fear that her real self is unlovable. She desperately tries to keep those whom she has trained to love her from falling out of love. If she fails, she tries to erase these people from her environment and her history, both in public and in private.
“She has erased much, but she hasn't been able to erase us. We have been able to warn other people about her. We may have even contributed to her losing some of those who once loved her. This comes at a cost, however: to the extent that we have succeeded in tarnishing her image, we have aggravated her basic problem. Although Tae Yun alone is to blame if COL has worsened, she is partly reacting to us. Then again, she would get crazier and COL would get worse even if we did nothing.”
Bemused said, “I was reminded of Tae Yun's bat-crazy attempt to get CA and me back together during that time. CA wasn't communicating with me at all, whether overseas or briefly visiting home. I told Tae Yun that if we were going to get back together, I wanted him to send me one email a week. She said, “ CA was "afraid he would say the wrong thing." If this fear was preventing him from contacting me at all, why did he even want a relationship? And if I was the one she was trying to motivate, why did she totally reject my simple and reasonable request?
“Tae Yun said I should want a "spiritual" relationship, in which we just "hold each other in our hearts." I told her, "My telepathy isn't that good." I also reminded her that she expected journals from all her COL students. Wasn't this the same thing?
“Here are Tae Yun's "couples counseling" methods based on my observations:
“Be sure to take sides, even if both people have valid complaints. Tae Yun sides with the man unless the woman is a far more dedicated student. (She doesn't approve of gay relationships.)
bemused said, “If the person whose side you've taken is neglecting or emotionally abusing the other person, ignore it. Someone (the man) always has to be the dominant partner. Always accept only the point of view of the person whose side you've taken. If the other person claims to be misunderstood, refuse to let them explain.
“If either person is upset, don't let the couple talk to each other directly. This makes it easier to lie to one person about what the other one said. If the person whose side you've taken has poor communication skills, tell them communication isn't important anyway. In fact, communication can be downright dangerous. If the person whose side you've taken feels hurt, don't require that they explain why. It's enough just to make the other person feel guilty.
“The ideal spiritual relationship requires no talking or physical contact. Contact should be kept to a minimum, with Tae Yun's supervision. If the person whose side you've taken is cheating with a hooker, don't tell the other person. It's not important if it's just "earthly" contact and not "spiritual" in any way.”
bemused said, “Tae Yun's trying to get CA and me back together after I'd already left COL and Lighthouse made no sense to me and still doesn't. What was she hoping to achieve?
“If she was trying to keep CA from hiring hookers by giving him a commitment to me to keep, she was bound to fail if there wasn't any real relationship between us. CA had much more respect for Tae Yun than for me. If his commitment to her "teaching" wasn't enough to restrain him, how would "keeping me in his heart" make any difference?
“If she was trying to keep me from drifting away, her plan backfired. I became more angry and disillusioned. Normally if you want to persuade someone to do something, you give them something they want. She didn't do that. Neither my desire to please her nor my memories of the early years with CA were strong enough to motivate me. I wanted her to respect my wishes, and she didn't. Instead, she belittled them.
“Through all this, I didn't know what CA wanted. The only clue was an email he finally wrote me when I pressured him. He had freaked out when I asked to discuss whether to have children and if so, when. He misunderstood and thought I wanted a baby right then. Tae Yun was no help; see point 4 of my previous post.
“He said that my breaking up with him hurt him, but his non-response at the time led me to believe that he didn't want a relationship either. What was I supposed to conclude? He also resented that I called him a "workaholic." Then he proceeded to tell me all about how his work-related goals were everything to him.
“It's just as well that it didn't work out. He turned out to be a traditional success-obsessed, communication-challenged, emotionally constipated male. He would do better with a traditional helpmate female. I hope he has found someone more suited to his temperament and lifestyle than I would have been.
“As for Tae Yun, she has no business counseling couples or anyone else. Her methods are contrary to every established, tested principle of marriage therapy. Good therapists don't take sides unless someone is being abused. In that case, they side with the victim, taking great care not to expose the victim to further danger.
“Good therapists teach communication skills and encourage their use. Good therapists want the couples they work with to "graduate" from therapy at some point.
“With CA and me, Tae Yun's ineptitude resulted in a comedy of errors and some frustration on all sides, but neither CA nor I were seriously harmed.
“I shudder to think of the damage Tae Yun could do to people in a relationship involving mental illness or abuse. This is why I bring up the subject again, despite its irrelevance to my continuing happily married life. “
bemused said, “I didn't know about CA's adventures in Asia with prostitutes, which started before I left COL and Lighthouse, until I discovered a cached page from cultmaster.com that included one of the journals he turned in to Tae Yun. I found it as a result of the same search that made me aware of Bullshido, more than eight years after I turned in my keys to the Jung Suwon academy. If I had known about this when Tae Yun was trying to get CA and me back together, I would have been completely unwilling. So of course Tae Yun didn't tell me.”
Failed Student said, “Bemused, your recent posts have given me much food for thought. Obviously, Tae Yun is the grandmaster of disruptive advice and manipulation, and her method of keeping each and every party in ignorance of others actions and verbalizations is not unique. In fact, I have encountered another person who now I believe may either have been Tae Yun's mentor in such skullduggery or perhaps even in cahoots.
“Needless to say, I find this very disturbing. Nonetheless, I have shared my doubts with others of that person's acquaintance, so we are now forearmed and forewarned, and nothing further shall come of it. Thanks for your input.”
bemused said, “The culties have managed to remove the negative reviews from Insider Pages. Those negative reviews weren't even all that bad compared to what's written here.”
bemused said, “I've decided not to read my old journals, unless I just have to look something up. It only makes me angry. What's odd is what does and doesn't still rankle me after all these years. I don't care that CA was hiring hookers. It still bothers me that Tae Yun tried to get us back together and didn't tell me about this. I don't care that CA misunderstood me. It still bothers me that Tae Yun raped my mind, insisting that what CA thought I said was what I actually felt. CA didn't have much experience with women, and it showed. Tae Yun lied and refused to hear the truth. CA acted like a jerk, but he can learn to treat his future loves better. Tae Yun can't learn from her mistakes.”
bemused said, “I hadn't thought about that "kids?" misunderstanding with CA for years, but reading an old journal entry got me puzzling about it again. Suddenly it hit me, and I wonder why I hadn't considered it before: maybe CA wasn't reacting to what I said but the mere fact of my bringing up the subject at all. Maybe he thought I was hinting, being indirect. And maybe he interpreted my repeated attempts at clarification as hinting all the more. If that was the case, it didn't matter what words I used.
“So I dusted off "That's Not What I Meant!" by Deborah Tannen and started rereading about direct vs. indirect communication styles. The difference is a matter of degree. No one can be totally direct, because things like tone of voice and context always send messages beyond the words.
“No one can be totally indirect either, if they want to have half a chance of getting their message across. But when one person is more direct than the other, misunderstandings can arise.
“Perhaps my calling CA "communication-challenged" was a bit unfair. If our communication styles were different, both of us were communication-challenged with respect to each other. I probably took him too literally and he probably interpreted things in what I said, “ that I didn't intend. Oh well.
“Then I started thinking about how Tae Yun uses indirect communication. She sends lots of hints to students about what she expects and gets upset if no one catches them. I don't take hints well, so I caught very few, until near the end, when I started seriously questioning her motives. One of the reasons Sarah K. rose fast in the ranks was because she took hints really well (Tae Yun once complained about having to wait for her nail polish to dry, and not long after that Sarah K. bought her a hand dryer).
“Tae Yun also criticizes people indirectly. For example, in response to my request for CA to email me once a week, Tae Yun said, “, in JSW class no less, "Some of my students don't trust me and are selfish." Her message did double duty: she slammed me while prompting all the other listening students to wonder how they might have been distrustful and selfish.
“Tae Yun infers all sorts of ulterior motives in other people, most of them negative. Sometimes she is right, but sometimes she is wrong, even absurdly wrong. Why did that new female student forget to pin her uniform?
“Because she was trying to show off her bust line to one of the instructors. Why did the girlfriend of that student get pregnant? Because she wanted to trap him. Why is that young male student showing off in class? Because he has the hots for Tae Yun.
“Yet as much as Tae Yun expects her hints to be taken and thinks she knows other people's intentions, she doesn't allow her own motives to be questioned. When I was there, her favorite dodge was, "I have satellite view," meaning that we earthbound mortals couldn't understand her motives well enough to question them.
“She also doesn't allow her "insights" to be questioned. Most people make inferences, but they're open to, and even eager for, a Reality check. Not Tae Yun. That new student really was coming on to the instructor, not merely forgetful. That girlfriend's pregnancy really was a trap, not an accident. That male student really was lustful, not proud. In her mind, anyway.
“Most regular martial arts students were unaware of what Tae Yun thought of them. But if you were in COL and Tae Yun decided that you were thinking or feeling a certain way, that was THE TRUTH, and if you didn't accept it she would wear you down until you did. There is a term for this: mind rape. Tae Yun is a mind rapist.”
hyeongsa said, “Brilliant insight Bemused. Classic examples of Tae Yun's manipulation of her students lives. Yeah, mind rapist is what she is. If only we would have seen it sooner.
“She has to be in control of her student's relationships and the way we were made to write everything in our journals, she knew just how to play us. Wake up COL!
“Stop being "enablers" and allowing Tae Yun to continue her evil ways. Without all of you she is nothing.”
Kathy Kim said, “I agree, she is nothing good. If she was she wouldn’t be so needy. She would be able to satisfy herself for who she is. But all these titles makes her think she is something more. She thinks she is God, One big clue she's not all that. Look at God's ways and her ways...totally different. It is what he can do for you not what you can do for him. With her it is what you can do for her, not what she can do for you. She may have you think she is doing something for you, but she isn't. you have smarts, weigh the situation.”
bemused said, “Alas, seeing reason won't prompt any COL member to leave. For me and for other ex-COL I've talked to, the motivation to join was emotional, and so was the motivation to leave.
“When I joined COL I was depressed, lonely, tired of my life, and just getting over a bad breakup with an emotionally distant guy. It's kind of funny, but when I left COL I was also depressed, lonely, tired of my life, and just getting over a bad breakup with an emotionally distant guy.
“Then there were Tae Yun's illusions and my feelings about them. She was going to save the world with her special wisdom, and I was going to help her, supposedly.
“When I joined I was excited, hopeful, awed, and in love. When the illusions cracked and then shattered, when I saw her as just another New Age narcissist, I was angry, sad, disgusted, and I felt betrayed.
“I joined COL to chase a dream, becoming an instructor, and I left COL to chase a different dream, becoming a songwriter. After I got my black belt I felt profoundly disappointed because it wasn't how I thought it would be. Since leaving I've been somewhat disappointed by the music business, but never by the music itself. It's the difference between chasing someone else's dream and chasing my own.”
bemused said, “Asking about diet and workout frequency is a start, but it's not enough. Most leaders of workout programs want to know about medical history, injuries, disabilities, age, weight, and previous experience with specific physical activities. Although not all such leaders are required to keep answers confidential, most do anyway.
“Mental health professionals want to know about more than just stress, sociality, and family relationships, although these are important. They ask about previous experience in counseling or therapy. They ask about substance abuse and previous mental health diagnoses. They are required to keep answers confidential.
“The most glaring omission is any question of what people in the program would want to accomplish for themselves. What's in it for them? Tae Yun seems to assume that whatever she offers is valuable simply because she is offering it. She used to ask questions like this. I guess trying to help people with real problems just got too tedious and burdensome.”
Failed Student said, “Hello KitTae Yuni and your friend: I rarely post here since my experience with Tae Yun was ages ago, but I guess a leopard doesn't change it's spots...
“I remember the mirror exercise all too well. What I saw in the reflection was a very, very unhappy person, and that too was a sign among many for me. I think that Tae Yun plays upon whatever the viewer perceives and magnifies it so that it becomes a Reality to that person. I know the night before her two students threw a rock through my window, I saw dark clouds and I mentioned this to her, not knowing at that time who was to blame for the vandalism. So she had me deluded into believing that there was negative energy surrounding me that caused this incident to happen. In retrospect, this was a crock.
“Those practices of intense staring cause images to be burned temporarily into the retina, and are an engineered effect. I also found support and comfort within the church. I do keep this in balance with other aspects of my life however. When I was one of Tae Yun's robots, my life was out of balance. or rather, I had no life outside of what was then ATC.
Thanks for joining this discussion. Peace – FS.”
Carson said, “Does anyone know if RDP is still there? He followed me into training after Tae Yun 'suggested' I divorce him. He was a good man, and I at times have felt regret for following Tae Yun's instructions. Once, several years after the divorce, Tae Yun told me that he had told her that he wished he had never married me and wished he had never met me. Knowing now how she manipulates, I do not know if that was true or not. But I do wish him well, and hope he has a good life.”
Carson said, “Yes, it is quite clear that COL, JSW, NS, AH, LWS, and whatever other companies Tae Yun heads will not outlive her. She does not teach her managers to think for themselves, and she has not built anything that will last.
“Shortly before I left, Tae Yun had the LWS managers read a book called 'Built to Last'. The book is a study of several highly successful corporations and the qualities that made them last long after the founders had passed on. Tae Yun's 'empire' has none of the qualities, and is completely built around her. Once she is gone, or can no longer exert the control over others, the 'empire' will collapse.”
Carson said, “It is as Bemused has said - it's a very gradual thing. Tae Yun is very good at picking up on a person's greatest desire or need and promising to fulfill that - for me it was having a purposeful life and helping to make the world a little bit better by the time I die than it was when I was born. Not long after I started training I mentioned to EAS that there were some tensions / issues in my marriage. RDP and I were fighting at times, and I also felt like he was losing respect for me as a person, and I didn't know how to 'fix' it. EAS suggested I speak with Tae Yun, because GMTae Yun had helped her to work through some issues with her marriage, and Tae Yun 'didn't want her students to start getting divorces, it would make her look bad.' I had the 'class' with Tae Yun, but rather than help with suggestions to save the marriage, she told me that I had a purpose to my life, and that my marriage had served a purpose in my growth as a person, but it was time to move forward, and that's why I was feeling so much stress - I was having trouble letting go. She played right into my greatest desire at the time - the desire to make more of my life and to be a part of something bigger than myself.”
kungfu4u said, “Tae Yun Kim stole years of my life and destroyed the relationships that I had with my family and friends. She is a modern day master thief not martial arts master. She manipulated us, stole our time, money, mind, freewill and souls. Through Jung Suwon and Lighthouse Worldwide Solutions she continues to brainwash her students, employees and worshippers.
“Her life is a lie and the truth should be told over and over again. There was no Jodie Foster, no Robin Williams, no Hilary Clinton or any other famous interview or relationship. No Barbara Walters, no Ethel Kennedy or any other real celebrity sent her flowers. She is a fake and a fraud that hides behind her instructors, make-up, jewels, clothes and plastic surgery.
“Tae Yun is alive but rotting from inside because she knows that her best years have already been and are gone. There will be no COL City, no Oprah interview, no movie and no Korean presidency.
kungfu4u said, “Failed Student: I was there longer than I should have been but not as long as most victims. Unfortunately Tae Yun is still residing here in the Bay Area and hasn’t gone back to Korea yet. Maybe she could go there and help with the reunification process again.”
Failed Student said, “kungfu4u -- I doubt that she'd be welcome in Korea. From what I have read here, she scammed plenty of money over there and I am sure that is not appreciated.
Shadow Dancer said, “Maybe she could become Kim Jong Il's love slave.”
Failed Stuident said, “A few corrections on the details KitTae Yuni: I do not believe her brother trained on a base. He is about six years younger than she and he would have been a teenager at that time. Also, as a civilian, I don't think training would have been allowed for non military personnel, but that's just my guess.
“Tae Yun's husband was Arthur L. Fontaine, not Mark Fontaine. He may have changed it when he moved to California. Her parents and brother came after her...if what Art told me was the truth...that he paid lots of money to get them over here.
“I have heard so many stories from the two of them, I don't know WTF to believe. Art said he worked for the CIA...a lie no doubt, since one does not speak of this ...ever...if they are employed by that agency.”
Rossanna said, “Hi KitTae Yuni..for clarification..giandomenico was a windsurfer who was brought to kim by his coach to help him win the national championships...I believe he was 19 at the time and purportedly, because of her meditation classes etc, he won. He was lured , as you call it by her promises of fame and fortune and began working for LWS as a sales rep. He went up in the ranks in record time and was executive vp of LWS by the time he was in his late 20's and the president of another one of her companies, MorningPlanet based in Milpitas with an office in the Philippines.
“He was removed or left depending on whose version you want to believe in June of 2006 when Kim found out about his relationship with another COL member. Giandomenico was never rich but he did have a flair for sales which made him an asset to Kim.
…
“He was removed or left depending on whose version you want to believe in June of 2006 when Kim found out about his relationship with another COL member. Giandomenico was never rich but he did have a flair for sales which made him an asset to Kim.
…
“The information here, the experiences shared have brought healing to those who were hurt and is meant to serve a heads up to those who may be caught up in the same situation in the future. Everone who reads this will decide for themseves whether or not the writers are credible. They will then make their own decisions and nothing can be done if they choose to believe kim over us. I am glad that your friend has seen the light and that these threads have helped. If there was only one person saved because of the experiences shared, that is fantastic in my book but as long as there are people alone and searching, vulnerable and weakened by life's challlenges , there will always be a "COL and a "Kim" who will try to "save" and "lead" them.
“Maybe instead of spending so much energy focusing on her, we can try to focus on helping those self same people before they even get to that point. Teenagers, young people, abused women and men, the lonely , the insecure, the desperate. Sometimes all it takes is a random act of kindness. Just saying.”
“Maybe instead of spending so much energy focusing on her, we can try to focus on helping those self same people before they even get to that point. Teenagers, young people, abused women and men, the lonely , the insecure, the desperate. Sometimes all it takes is a random act of kindness. Just saying.”
The post on the web about Tae Yun coaching a women’s team to the Olympics is a fraud. She assisted the coaches. She was not their coach.
carson said, “Thanks AiTouch! Wow - this is just full of lies! Coached the TEAMS? a few individuals who happened to be a member of one of the teams perhaps, but certainly not any entire teams! And that's just the start. It's so sad - if Tae Yun just stayed to the truth there would still be many impressive awards, even if known that many were actively pursued by the 'inner circle' students who wrote over-the-top letters and essays professing why Tae Yun should get the award (I know, I was one) - but that was how many of the awardees of these awards got them. But there are so many outright lies here - it negates all of what may be the truth. As Bemused has said, Tae Yun knows that the awards are hollow, and so Tae Yun keeps requiring more and more - so much so that she'll greatly exaggerate her actual accomplishments, and even make them up completely. If only Tae Yun listened to her own teaching - be true to yourself.”
And carson continued, “Don't be easily fooled - Koren culture is very much who you know and how successful you appear, and has very little to do with actual fact. Those of us who were on 'the inside' for a long time have seen it work. Tae Yun has built a very good appearance of being who she wants people to think she is, and the more legitimate people she can bring into her web, the more legitimate she appears.
bemused said, “The issue of whether Tae Yun is a legitimate Grandmaster is separate from the issue of her abusing her students. Some legitimately credentialed therapists sleep with their patients, and their credentials don't make it okay.
“Some of the Bullshido folks researched Tae Yun's martial arts background and verified that she legitimately obtained a third-degree black belt. Her claims aren't entirely fraudulent, just exaggerated.”
“Some of the Bullshido folks researched Tae Yun's martial arts background and verified that she legitimately obtained a third-degree black belt. Her claims aren't entirely fraudulent, just exaggerated.”
Shadow Dancer added, “(AI Touch) The presence of a title actually means nothing. I am the greatest Grandmaster of my own style: "Pet Kat Do". I only have one student... my apprentice: Sweetums. She and I work out a few hours every day. Just like the Sith there is only one master and one apprentice. Can you dispute that I am legit?
“You may desire to dig a bit deeper into those titles and awards to see how they were obtained. Kim's doctorate is an honorary degree from a small college in Korea. She never studied there. She never wrote a thesis. She never defended that thesis to legitimately obtain her degree. It was a 'gift' from the college. Do you think that gift was given without strings?
“Kim is a dame comandatrice in the order of constantine. Please do a bit of research on this organization and you will see that it is an 'honor mill' that, according to their prior sponsors, is issuing awards without legitimate provenance.
“Kim's people love to show the picture of her with George Bush Sr. Do you know the story of it? It was obtained during a fund raising visit during the Reagan years when he was the VP. Kim had been selected by the Korean community to give him a bouquet of flowers. She was supposed to do this and then get out of the way for the important members of the Korean community to hold their meetings. But the 'flower girl' pulled off a coup and got her picture taken. It now holds a special place of honor. Do you think she tells people that she was just a flower girl who tricked her community? How do you think she presents the picture?
“By all means, investigate her... but don't rely on the simple presence of a title. Learn where it came from and how it was obtained. Perhaps the best solution would be for you to visit them. After you are with them for about 10 years, you can then speak from first hand knowledge about what is fiction and what is real.”
“You may desire to dig a bit deeper into those titles and awards to see how they were obtained. Kim's doctorate is an honorary degree from a small college in Korea. She never studied there. She never wrote a thesis. She never defended that thesis to legitimately obtain her degree. It was a 'gift' from the college. Do you think that gift was given without strings?
“Kim is a dame comandatrice in the order of constantine. Please do a bit of research on this organization and you will see that it is an 'honor mill' that, according to their prior sponsors, is issuing awards without legitimate provenance.
“Kim's people love to show the picture of her with George Bush Sr. Do you know the story of it? It was obtained during a fund raising visit during the Reagan years when he was the VP. Kim had been selected by the Korean community to give him a bouquet of flowers. She was supposed to do this and then get out of the way for the important members of the Korean community to hold their meetings. But the 'flower girl' pulled off a coup and got her picture taken. It now holds a special place of honor. Do you think she tells people that she was just a flower girl who tricked her community? How do you think she presents the picture?
“By all means, investigate her... but don't rely on the simple presence of a title. Learn where it came from and how it was obtained. Perhaps the best solution would be for you to visit them. After you are with them for about 10 years, you can then speak from first hand knowledge about what is fiction and what is real.”
Then Kathy Kim also added, “Same thing with her picture of Barbara Bush. She had us buy seats at a couple of tables at a luncheon in SF, so that made her a VIP because she had purchased the tables. Then there was a picture taking opportunity in the back. Tae Yun got her picture taken with Mrs Bush. If fact, so did I. So there was no honor there. Just a photo opportunity. There was no conversation, no words of wisdom, just a photo oppurtunity. If you read the website (which seems completely legit) it states she's a grandmaster of Tae kwon do. That's the title I was referring to, not her title as grandmaster of Ju Suwon.”
And Shadow Dancer said, “Kim cannot produce any credentials beyond having tested for 3rd Dan in Tang Soo Do. She is free to call herself a GM in any art that is original to her. Where does the TKD fit in? Her early training stories bounce between having been taught by her uncles and some traveling monk in the mountains.
“She also claims to be a CEO. Actually, that is true... LWS gave her the title. But, she knows practically nothing about the technology, can't even understand a balance sheet, and takes pride in her computer illiteracy. One needs to consider how she acquired her titles and honors in order to decide if her claims have any validity. Feel free to buy into her BS.”
“She also claims to be a CEO. Actually, that is true... LWS gave her the title. But, she knows practically nothing about the technology, can't even understand a balance sheet, and takes pride in her computer illiteracy. One needs to consider how she acquired her titles and honors in order to decide if her claims have any validity. Feel free to buy into her BS.”
AI Touch replied, “So I'm naive for buying what it says in the Tae kwon do hall of fame and other places instead of what is to me is sounding like some sort of strange conspiracy theory. I have heard her talked about by legitimate masters as a grandmaster in Tae kwon do and she is acknowledged as such by the ITF. You have not said anything so far which I have seen verified, and seem to be suggesting that the ITF gives out the title of Grandmaster solely for political purposes which sounds pretty sketchy to me. I don't think the ITF just hands out the title of Grandmaster and I don't see where you're coming from calling that BS.
“Do you really think an internet forum is better suited to determine if someone is a legitimate Grnadmaster than an international martial arts federation? You need to get real and know that to an outsider like myself the ITF has way more credibility in determining. Now whether she abuses her students I'm still undecided.”
Then Failed Student added, “Having trained with Tae Yun Kim when she was known as Kyong Ae Fontaine in Vermont way back in the eighties, I can only direct you to my many posts if you have doubts as to her abuse of students. As I stated in one of my first posts, everything I write here I will attest to under oath in a court of law, should that be necessary.
“In the three years I trained with her, she went from her stated fifth dan to grandmaster status without testing, and that occurred about the time she broke from her brother and started her own school - ATC. I never saw any certificates showing any rank.
“Tae Yun told me that "if the Creater made her a man, she would rule the world". I leave it to you to be the judge of such a comment.
“AiTouch, until you experience for yourself what many others have endured at the hands of Tae Yun, you cannot blatantly dismiss these posts as fabrications. Then again, I wouldn't suggest that.
“In the three years I trained with her, she went from her stated fifth dan to grandmaster status without testing, and that occurred about the time she broke from her brother and started her own school - ATC. I never saw any certificates showing any rank.
“Tae Yun told me that "if the Creater made her a man, she would rule the world". I leave it to you to be the judge of such a comment.
“AiTouch, until you experience for yourself what many others have endured at the hands of Tae Yun, you cannot blatantly dismiss these posts as fabrications. Then again, I wouldn't suggest that.
And Shadow Dancer said, “If you don't understand the concepts of money and purchasing titles, then yes... you are naive. I was there, I was one of those who helped her purchase her honors and political influence. So... if you are dazzled by a title... then good for you. You are exactly the person she is looking for. You haven't been able to explain how she got where she is. She is only 'officially' credentialed up to 3rd dan in Tang Soo Do. How that gets her to grandmaster in Tae Kwon Do has never been explained other than cronyism and political favors. Why don't you back up your awe of her position with actual verifiable credentials instead of a bestowed title. She has enough of those and very few legitimate ones. I was there. Where were you? Good luck!
AiTouch said, “I was listening to your posts leaning on the side of believing they were legitimate but I'm clearly not now. I'll admit you had me going with
“I was looking up churches and one that I found was instructing it's members to always allow visitors to express doubts, concerns and have questions regarding faith and religion. When I came here and expressed doubts as to her credentials being nonexistant based on what I had seen I was immediately labeled a naive idiot who buys into everything Tae Yun says and is in total awe of her accomplishments(lol). I took your claims legitimately when I found you on a google search and decided to post, but it's obvious by your response you just want to group bash her and not have a discussion of her which would include things like doubts or looking into credentials.
“I'll agree that she seems very cult like, but you're not at all better, only people that believe the same things about Tae Yun are accepted by you and those who have doubts are outcasted are naive and illogical and stupid. Do you really think people are going to take your claims seriously when all you seem to care about is trashing her?(made despicable by the fact that you are pretending to be healing and warning others when this is just a calculated strike against her character). I'm sorry that I wasted my time here on what are clearly unverifiable(and honestly, clearly exaggerated) claims by an angry group reduced to speaking on an internet forum(acting all afraid to speak out which is pathetic). She may very well abuse her students, but it's impossible to tell by the crap you try peddling here.
“I won't waste my time reading your responses about how only people that see the light and open their eyes and accept the truth the Tae Yun is this evil person can truly join in your group and have the privilege of acceptance on this forum, and how I'm just blown away by the title of grandmaster(I'v trained under three founders) and can't see the truth of her past her shining accomplishments and unbelievable charisma. What a joke you people are.”
“I was looking up churches and one that I found was instructing it's members to always allow visitors to express doubts, concerns and have questions regarding faith and religion. When I came here and expressed doubts as to her credentials being nonexistant based on what I had seen I was immediately labeled a naive idiot who buys into everything Tae Yun says and is in total awe of her accomplishments(lol). I took your claims legitimately when I found you on a google search and decided to post, but it's obvious by your response you just want to group bash her and not have a discussion of her which would include things like doubts or looking into credentials.
“I'll agree that she seems very cult like, but you're not at all better, only people that believe the same things about Tae Yun are accepted by you and those who have doubts are outcasted are naive and illogical and stupid. Do you really think people are going to take your claims seriously when all you seem to care about is trashing her?(made despicable by the fact that you are pretending to be healing and warning others when this is just a calculated strike against her character). I'm sorry that I wasted my time here on what are clearly unverifiable(and honestly, clearly exaggerated) claims by an angry group reduced to speaking on an internet forum(acting all afraid to speak out which is pathetic). She may very well abuse her students, but it's impossible to tell by the crap you try peddling here.
“I won't waste my time reading your responses about how only people that see the light and open their eyes and accept the truth the Tae Yun is this evil person can truly join in your group and have the privilege of acceptance on this forum, and how I'm just blown away by the title of grandmaster(I'v trained under three founders) and can't see the truth of her past her shining accomplishments and unbelievable charisma. What a joke you people are.”
Then carson said, “AiTouch - please don't judge all of us on this forum based on one or two people's comments, which may have been written out of anger or frustration at the time. There are 20+ of us who have been posting here.
“Most of us have no desire to convert anyone to our beliefs. We only want to warn and be a resource for those who are in Tae Yuns circle, if they start to wonder or doubt. If this forum had been around while I was inside, I would have gotten out much sooner. Instead, since we are all told not to speak with each other, and through the system of journaling directly to Tae Yun, anyone who mentions any doubt is immediately reported and publicly humiliated and punished, I had no source of information other than Tae Yun.
I'm sorry that you feel you were put upon in any way in this forum. Why the hostility? Do you WANT to believe that Tae Yun is legit?
“Most of us have no desire to convert anyone to our beliefs. We only want to warn and be a resource for those who are in Tae Yuns circle, if they start to wonder or doubt. If this forum had been around while I was inside, I would have gotten out much sooner. Instead, since we are all told not to speak with each other, and through the system of journaling directly to Tae Yun, anyone who mentions any doubt is immediately reported and publicly humiliated and punished, I had no source of information other than Tae Yun.
I'm sorry that you feel you were put upon in any way in this forum. Why the hostility? Do you WANT to believe that Tae Yun is legit?
Shadow Dancer said, “Actually Carson, I am unsympathetic to AiTouch. He/She comes here and declares Tae Yun legit because she is declared a TKD grandmaster by an international body. He has been unable to reveal how this can be since her only credentials are in Tang Soo Do. I remember the time when criticisms about Kim's lack of credentials were published back in the late 80's. We tried to, but were unable to counter the accusations because there were no documents and kim couldn't even name the organizations we could have gone to for duplicate certificates.”
carson said, “Hi Shadow! Good points all, and I, too, am unsympathetic about anyone who will come on this forum and claim that what we say is untrue, when they know nothing of it. I'll admit, however, that had I not lived it myself, I would not have believed some of the things Tae Yun has done, and we felt compelled/coerced to accept, to be possible. Some of the responses to Ai, however, being written, with no voice inflection and no body language attached, came across a little harsh, and he/she took them personally, which is unfortunate. Having the advantage of knowing almost everyone, and feeling like I know Failed Student through her many posts, I know the posts to Ai were not meant to be personal or in any way hostile, but he/she had no way of knowing that.
Shadow Dancer said, “Hi Carson... you are absolutely correct. Without voice inflections or a direct history in the situation, our comments (mine in particular) may have come across as harsh. Alas, I have had too much direct experience to have my knowledge overturned by kim getting an award. It was not my intention to be harsh... only directly on point.
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