The Cult of COL according to Bullshido, Part 12

     Failed Student said, “Hey Bemused, how about me! I was part of Tae Yun's inner circle too at the beginning, but after I ran out of money and I became too independent of her, I was suspended/expelled on a flimsy excuse.

     “So before I hobble off into infirmity, I just want you all to know that Tae Yun did give the other four very intense training, sometimes lasting through the night, and I was able to go home, have a glass of wine, relax, and forget about it all for a while.

     “Her predecessor company, The Software Group, was a freaking disaster from the get-go, never made enough money to pay anyone, and did not fulfill their commitments to their customers, few as they were. Their software was incompatible with the customers computers, some of their programs just did not work, and their Bible - themed video games went nowhere in the market. No wonder they left Vermont under the cover of darkness, leaving a multitude of debts behind.”

     bemused said, “I'm sorry, Failed Student. I didn't meet you until I had been out for years, and all the time I was in I only heard about whoever was still in. So it's habit. I'm sure that now Tae Yun only talks about Scott and Michael F. having been there in the beginning, because WHH and DKP (whom you apparently knew as RL) left.

     “Lighthouse started out as a software consulting firm, with Scott and DKP doing most of the engineering work.

     “I worked as a technical writer through Lighthouse for a few years. It wasn't quite the mess that The Software Group was, but it was still kind of a seat-of-the-pants operation.

     “Most of the Lighthouse contractors at that time were software testers, because it was fairly easy to perform in a testing job if you had any talent for it. Normally you need a degree in a computer-related field, but people simply lied on their resumes. No one got caught as far as I know.

     “When Shadow Dancer suggested that Lighthouse make a monitoring system for the clean room at Komag, Lighthouse got lucky. No one had thought to bring all clean room sensor data into one real-time display before. So after they sold the system to Komag, they started marketing it successfully to many other companies that manufactured in clean rooms.”

     Failed Student said, “Hey, not to worry Bemused. I'm just a ghost from the past and apparently Tae Yun's worst nightmare, because I know the origins of this cult.

     hyeongsa said, “JP is naturally talented although he lost a tournament a few years back when Tae Yun was attempting to get him into the Olympics. Like everything else she starts or promises, it never happens for what ever the reason. After he lost she moved him on to work in the shipping dept of LWS.

     “He is an "instructor" as he has been promoted above most of the adults who had been training for over a decade. Probably so Tae Yun can have some young blood to show off.

     “I hear LWS is hurting during this economic downturn. The way she spends money it must be hard and stressful to meet her demands. Those that live in the area claim to see a lot of cars parked outside her LWS building at all hours including Saturday and Sunday. For anyone who has have been there, this means work instead of class thus fewer senior instructors to lead the classes at JSW.

     “Failed Student fortunately you have surfaced and shared what happened in Vermont. You are somewhat a "missing link" and provide the truth as to what really happened there instead of Tae Yun's lies. Thank you from all of us.”

     Failed Student said, “Well Hyeongsa, it has been my pleasure to contribute to this thread. Obviously I am not aware of what's happening out there in the internal workings of Tae Yun and her flunkies, but every once in a while I see a parallel to what is posted by you and others and something that happened back here.

     "Missing Link" eh? I will not take offense at that since I get your gist, but it does have certain anthropological connotations.

     bemused said, “Failed Student said, I will confess that for a few years I wrote Lighthouse's manuals for free on evenings and weekends while working another tech writing job during the day. You were smarter than I was.

     “What I found most frustrating, though, was not the lack of pay, but the lack of appreciation. I learn and write very quickly. I was so efficient that Tae Yun and the other COLies concluded that what I was doing must have been easy. DKP was an exception, but he left after a few years.

     “Tae Yun wants you to accomplish your tasks well and on time, but she wants to see you working lots of overtime to do it. The harder you work and the more you suffer, the more she thinks you're really dedicated and loyal. If you're working smart and have more free time that you fill with other things, even if they're meditation or working out, well, that means either your workload isn't heavy enough or you're just plain lazy.

     “Some COLies used this to their advantage though. "I have to catch up at Lighthouse" became the best excuse to get out of COL classes where someone was being punished, COL2 or COL3 house meetings, or any other unpleasant activity.”

     hyeongsa said, “Tae Yun will never allow her devoted COL followers to have children.  She says if you want children you are selfish. In Reality, she does not want to compete with any children as they get in the way of her being in full control of her "students".  There is a lot of information about how the children who grew up there were treated as we read in Chica's posts. In due time more stories will be told.

     “The Tae Yun cult continues to be involved in various lawsuits against them. Here is one:

Particle Measuring Systems v Lighthouse Worldwide Solutions Filed on 12-9-09 in Federal Court, Denver CO on a Patent Infringement

     “This info can be googled. Of course they are innocent until proven guilty but history shows that Tae Yun will cheat any way she can for money and power. How greedy.”

     bemused said, “Funny, when I was in COL, Tae Yun said that someday, when we built COL City, we could all have families. I guess she has given up that fantasy.

Having children is "selfish"? Hmmm... Just ask any parent how much self-sacrifice is involved. Tae Yun is the selfish one.

     bemused said, “I don't think pretty women are more likely to be victims than less attractive women in general. But a leader with considerable power can choose whomever he wants. I heard that one cult leader even had an assistant who would bring him a disciple for his nightly pleasure based on the physical attributes for which he was in the mood.

     “And when I was in Tae Yun's cult, I noticed that the Korean businessmen who visited Jung Suwon or Lighthouse had a preference for blondes. For a while, Tae Yun had KS, a very pretty young blonde, do a lot of her PR work with the Koreans. I don't think KS did anything improper. I just think Tae Yun knew that Korean men would respond to KS's appearance in a way that made them easier to manipulate.”

     Kathy Kim said, “Can't wait to see the article in TKD saying what a great honor it is for her. It is just as false as she is. It looks like you are smarter than Scott, (Scott), Shadow Dancer. He should of done his homework before he spent all that money to get her award. bs meets bs ......no one could be more deserving of it than her......one fake to another

     Kathy Kim said, “her birthday is coming up. I always remember it as it is on Groundhog day. I'm surprised no one has gotten her that title. Let's see, what do you get for a 64 year old that has "almost" all she ever wanted? Oops it must even be beyond her reach. Because she can't buy it, bribe it, or steal it. I do know of one thing coming her way...Karma.”

     Bemused spoke of doublethink. PP has summarized it. Doublethink is to say one thing and think another, meaning the same thing but really there is another meaning only you know and your version is completely different than the one you present to change the receiver’s thinking.

     “I remember an Energy Training class in which Tae Yun was criticizing COL for revealing to non-COL students that maybe we weren't always peacefully content. All of a sudden Sarah K. got the concept and was very excited, as if she had made an important discovery. I don't remember her exact words, but they went something like this:

     “I'm aware of my issues but I also project the happiness I feel!

     “This was an especially clear and concise example of doublethink. As for me, I always had difficulty with thoughts like this. Tae Yun would sometimes tell me, sarcastically, "You too smart for me." I guess she was right.”

     bemused said, “I would like to clarify what it was about Sarah K.'s statement than made it an example of doublethink. Again: I'm aware of my issues but I also project the happiness I feel!

     “It's not that she had mixed emotions, which are normal. It's that she was "projecting" only one of those emotions. She thought that being "aware" of her other emotions made this all right.

     “What she simultaneously knew and didn't know was that she was lying.

      “She would have been more consistent had she been unaware of her "issues." If she had been unconscious of her negative emotions, she would not have been lying by hiding them from other people. But to achieve that, she would have had to go from doublethink to dissociation, which is a much deeper split in the mind.

     “I don't mean to pick on Sarah K.. There was a lot of doublethink going on in COL, and some dissociation too. I was not immune. Although doublethink tended and still tends to make my brain hurt, I was repressing some of my emotions.

     “During my last two years in COL I would have crying spells for no apparent reason. It took me a while to realize that I wasn't feeling what I was supposed to feel. Although I was surrounded by people who supposedly cared about me and was rarely alone, I felt lonely. Although I was a black belt, a full-time employee of Lighthouse, and a COL member, supposedly at the center of everything Tae Yun had going on, I felt alienated.  Although martial arts students seemed to like my instruction and Lighthouse customers liked my manuals and training, I felt unappreciated and disrespected by Tae Yun and COL.

     “I left for a number of reasons, including wanting to make my own music, hearing that the BB lawsuit involved more money than I'd realized, and hearing Tae Yun say the same thing about an insinuated affair with an instructor that a yoga cult leader had said about a sexual harassment accusation ("Think of all the wonderful energy they're getting"). But    I think one of the deeper reasons was that I found I enjoyed the company of people outside of COL more than that of those in COL.

     “In other words, I wasn't aware of contradictory thoughts, but my thoughts and feelings didn't match. What was supposed to make me happy didn't.”

     Ryanbeld said, “I worked it out with my mom where I would hold back on the posts. but I can no longer do so after reading her praises for kim all the time on facebook.. Its like a slap in my face. Its basically like calling me a liar. I poured out my heart and real experiences and her constant praise of Kim just shows me she either doesn’t believe a word I say or just doesn’t care. maybe both.”

     bemused said, “Your mom's words and actions are another good example of doublethink. She has "I love my master" and "I love my kids" tracks in her mind, and she somehow manages to rationalize away the inconsistencies. She does love you, and I'm sure she believes you to a degree, but I'll bet she thinks you're suffering because you've been influenced by some dark force and that if you'd just rejoin COL, you'd be fine.

     “It's also possible that deep down she envies your freedom, but that she can't even come close to admitting this to herself.

     “People tend to loudly proclaim things about which they are secretly uncertain or guilty but that they want desperately to believe or make others believe. As Shakespeare famously wrote, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." By the way, is your mom's Facebook page public?

     “Your mom's greatest tragedy is the doublethink she has in regard to how Tae Yun treats her. If anyone else treated her that way, I'm sure your mom would feel like a slave. But Tae Yun keeps telling her how privileged she is to take all that abuse. I'm not sure your mom has enough self-esteem to escape this mental prison, and of course Tae Yun wants to keep her that way.

     “I feel terrible about how you, your sister, and the other COL kids were neglected. I am also very proud of all of you for finding your way out. I rejoice at your freedom and resilience. Living well is the best revenge.”

     bemused said, “Ryanbeld, your sister Chicabonita recently told me that your mom seems like two people, one a kimbot (my word, I just made it up) and one a normal mom.

I thought a section from Steven Hassan's book Combating Cult Mind Control, entitled      "Dual Identity: The Key to Understanding Cult Members," might shed some light on your mom's behavior. This dual identity isn't multiple personality disorder; it's just a really bad case of doublethink.

     “A member of a mind control cult is at war with himself. Therefore, when dealing with a cult member, it is extremely important to keep in mind that he has two identities....

Ordinarily, only one of these two selves occupies the consciousness at a time. The personality on duty most of the time is the cult identity. Only intermittently does the old identity reappear.

     “It is essential for family members to sensitize themselves to the differences between the two identity patterns, in terms of both content (what the person talks about) and communication patterns (the way he speaks and acts). Each one looks and sounds distinctively different.

     “When [the cult identity] is talking, his speech is...like a tape recording of a cult lecture....His posture will typically be more rigid, his facial muscles tighter. His eyes will tend to strike family members as glassy, cold, or glazed, and he will often seem to stare through people.

     “On the other hand, when [the old identity] is talking he will speak with a greater range of emotion. He will be more expressive and will share his feelings more willingly. He will be more spontaneous and may even show a sense of humor. His posture and musculature will appear to be looser and warmer. Eye contact will be more natural.

     “Such a stark description of a divided personality may seem too simplistic, but it is amazingly accurate. It's an eerie experience to be talking with someone and sense that while you are in mid-sentence, a different personality has taken over his body.  Recognizing the change, and acting appropriately, is the key to unlocking the person's real self and freeing it from the cult's bondage....

     “As much as cult indoctrination attempts to destroy and suppress the old identity, and empower the new identity, it almost never totally succeeds. Good experiences and positive memories rarely disappear entirely. Of course, the cult identity will try to bury former reference points and submerge the person's past. Yet, over time, the old self exerts itself and seeks out ways to regain its freedom.

     “The process is speeded up by positive exposure to non-members and the accumulation of bad experiences he has while in the group.”

     Carson said, “Hi Bemused! The descriptions of the doublethink you've written about are so true. While I was in COL I worked very hard to rationalize the insanity, making excuses to myself as to why Tae Yun acted as she did, and convincing myself that any feelings of confusion and any doubt were because of my own failings.

     “Towards the end, however, I just couldn't rationalize it any more, and one last session of Tae Yun's screaming sessions sent me over the edge.

    “Even so, I tried to come back, but on my terms. I wanted a raise so I could afford to live on my own in a studio apartment. I objected to the plan to have me continue working 90+ hrs a week (my actual work hours would be reduced somewhat so I could attend engineering courses in my 'free' time, courses which Scott determined I should take) Of course, I was put on a 'program' to rethink my position. After two weeks I left - all the more sure I needed to leave for good rather than seeing 'the errors of my ways.'

     “After I left it took a long time to rediscover who I was. I no longer knew what sorts of things I enjoyed or what I wanted. I experimented with a lot of thinks - hikes in the woods, volunteering on community projects, gardening, reading, making jewelry, taking classes at the junior college.

     “Gradually, I started to find things that gave me true joy and fulfillment. It was amazing how certain things would trigger me back into the double-think. At first they happened all the time. Over time, the triggers happened less and less frequently. I will still, rarely, have one hit once in a while, and I may never actually be free of them, but I know what they are, and I can see then and let them go.

My life is so much more fulfilling now, and I have never regretted having left.”

     bemused said, “Wow, Carson, you dared to demand more of Tae Yun than anyone else I know of except perhaps Adam G (but of course, he had some special leverage there for a while). I'll bet Tae Yun just hated that.

     “Chicabonita said, “ said, “ you also dared to tell off Tae Yun when she got the screaming mee-mees that fateful night. I wish I'd had the guts to do that when I left. (The most I managed to do was write in my journal, "Grandmaster doesn't handle disagreement well." I hope that at least made her squirm for a second.) Your boldness probably helped you recover.

     “I too have triggers. If I let myself get too tired, I sometimes slip into the same emotional state I was in while in COL. For a minute I'm a different person in a different Reality, then I come back. I can't tolerate too much egotism, charm, or authoritarianism in a leader. I get acutely uncomfortable and have to leave. It took me a while to be able to sit through a church service (which I sometimes have to do because my mother-in-law is, in her own way, devout).

     “One of the things Tae Yun promises that her students will attain is joy. I had some good times in COL, but really, compared to what Tae Yun promised, it wasn't much. I too have found more happiness after leaving COL, from love, friendship, music, helping people, and even work.”

      bemused said, “Kimmie has already done that in at least one instance. Kimmie presided over MountEverestGirl's "marriage" to Scott. Apparently it wasn't legal, though, because according to Chicabonita said, “, MountEverestGirl's tax returns in the following years listed her marital status as single.

     Bemused said, “Kimmie seems to handle such marriages on a case-by-case basis, though. I've heard that Michael F. was due to inherit some money on the condition that he was married. So his marriage to KSW was legal (they have since divorced).

     “TCS and Sarah K. were legally married in Sarah K.'s hometown, from what I heard. I don't know about Michael F. and HC, but the video sure was interesting, with HC thanking Kimmie for giving her the confidence to go through with it.

     “I also heard that KH and AS tied the knot, or were planning to. They're a rather odd couple, not because they're of different races, but because KH used to be an open lesbian.

     “These approved COL partnerships seem to be the exception, though. Kimmie would rather keep most of her followers as sexually frustrated and lonely as possible. She doesn't want any two of them to become more loyal to each other than they are to her.

I had a Kimmie-approved relationship with CA for a while. He was overseas most of the time. When he came home for short stretches, I saw him for a few hours at most each time. Then he started getting really skittish around me.

     “I found out through the short-lived cultmaster.com website that CA was seeing prostitutes while overseas. Having a serious relationship with someone outside of COL can get you kicked out, but apparently if it's only sex you just get punished until you beg for forgiveness.

      Carson said, “FYI - Tae Yun said that MT and I should get married at the same time as Sarah K. & TCS. We were told to have large weddings and to tell all guests to give money instead of gifts. Sarah K.s family was wealthy, and they were happy to give a large, expensive wedding. Tae Yun even chose the china pattern for those who wished to give physical gifts. The china was, of course, given to Tae Yun, as I presume the $ was as well.      After the wedding, Tae Yun had Sarah K. show the other gifts they had received, with Tae Yun making fun of each and telling Sarah K. to sell it on eBay. I don't know how much $ was eventually turned over to Tae Yun as a result of all the gifts.

     “My parents said they wouldn't pay for a wedding as it was my second (my first had ended in divorce, at Tae Yun's recommendation). My parents said I was to have a small wedding and to tell the guests no gifts. Since this was going to cost $ rather than be a money-making deal, Tae Yun called off the engagement for MT & myself. Looking back I see how lucky I was to still be single; it made walking away a little bit easier.”

     Carson said, “I've had people ask how intelligent people can get sucked in by cults. It starts out with little things that can be easily believed. As the lies get bigger and bigger, it's not so much that they are believed, or even that one wants to believe them. Rather, it's the fear of what would happen if they are true and you don't believe? Tae Yun doesn't have to convince everyone that what she says is the truth, she only has to instill enough doubt that one is afraid to go against her.

     “When I left I had gotten to the point where I didn't care anymore whether I lived or died. At that point I had nothing more to lose by leaving (though she still tried to pull the eternal damnation scare).

     “Bemused what you said about ES is very true - I cared for and respected her more than anyone else in COL, and I know she truly cared about others and her kids very much. But Tae Yun had her totally believing that she was worth nothing, so ES would do whatever Tae Yun to the best of her ability, even when Tae Yun was beating her and locked her outside for days on end. ES has had to put her trust completely in Tae Yun in order to do the things to others that she has done. To see Tae Yun for what she is, ES would have to then accept all the things that she has done to others as her fault, for having followed Tae Yun without question. But they aren't her fault, she is as much a victim as anyone, and probably much more so.

     bemused said, “Carson, what you wrote about Sarah K. and TCS vs. you and MT speaks volumes. What it boils down to is that Tae Yun only allows a marriage when there's something in it for her. My parents caught on early that they shouldn't give me money, which may partly explain why CA & I never set a date.

     “I agree with what you say about Tae Yun's manipulation of belief and doubt. I would only add that being in a cult can mean wanting to believe some things, in order to remain a member in good standing and to keep alive those beautiful illusions cult leaders are so good at painting. The promise of meeting emotional needs hooks the heart and brings the mind with it.

     “You may have felt like you didn't care if you lived or died when you left, but your leaving shows clearly that underneath it all you wanted to live. It might not have seemed like it at times, but I respected you as much as I respected ES, and when I left I hoped you would find your way out. I'm very glad you did.

     “Ah, the eternal damnation scare. The irony of it is that every cult leader pulls this one, yet they can't all be the only guide to salvation.

     “Tae Yun beat ES and locked her outside for days? At this point nothing that Tae Yun does shocks me, but I'm still capable of outrage. It just goes to show that Tae Yun treats people as wretchedly as their "trust" in her permits her to. Tae Yun has reinvented the classic trauma-inducing alternation of flattery and flogging. It's a lot like the cycle of violence to which battered women are subjected. And to add insult to injury, I'll bet Scott did nothing to protect ES.

     “I agree that ES is a victim. I think ES has some accountability, but Tae Yun should get 90% of the blame for acts committed in her name.”

     Failed Student said, “I also heard that KH and AS tied the knot, or were planning to. They're a rather odd couple, not because they're of different races, but because KH used to be an open lesbian.

     “This is obviously a marriage of convenience. Never mind that sexual orientation is determined by genetics, kimmie. Yeah, go ahead, throw any two people together for appearances' sake, or maybe you can guilt trip the lesbian into a marriage and then tell people you "cured" her. Be sure and humiliate her publicly too, as a part of one of your demonstrations as you blather about how great you are. You make me want to puke, bitch.”

     hyeongsa said, “Carson said, remember when you spoke up in the break room at "Strawberry Field"? You had the courage to confront Tae Yun on many of the things that most everyone else had been thinking for years. It was jaw dropping to say the least.

     “What you may not know is what happened after that as a result of your speaking up. You truly got to her and she was quite beside herself. For example, the part about how you and all of COL respond to her by saying what we were "expected" to say was hitting a bulls eye. Imagine that, for Tae Yun to wonder if every "yes ma'am" she hears isn't genuine or all the rest of the BS we had to spew when put on the spot in front of class or her friends at a dinner party about how she "saved" us.

     “Thank you for what you did that day. Besides, everyone could see how she took advantage of you and all your hard work at LWS. Your contributions were major yet you were rarely recognized for your efforts.

     “Tae Yun met with COL later that night (remember she took us all out of the room) and screamed at us because no one in the room stopped you from speaking your mind to her.   Hmmm, wonder why? Perhaps it is because we all agreed, duh Tae Yun. The senior instructors took the brunt of her lashing out at us and as a result from that day forward anyone who dared even hint at TKY being less that god-like was shouted down by others in the group.

     “I guess she would rather have others put up her fight and sit and listen to them sing her praises instead of listening to her closest students express their mind and frustration. Can you imagine trying to express yourself and having everyone else in your face shouting you down? This took COL class to a new and even weirder level. Worse yet, if someone does not come to her defense, they too become a target.

     “Bemused said, wish you had been there. I would be interested on your take with the cult aspect of all this.”

     Failed Student said, “Tae Yun is spinning out of control. Apparently this event took place a few years ago, so if I follow the line from how she was in Vermont to that event you mention till today, it must be like living in an insane asylum by now.

     “I wonder why people allow themselves to live in fear of a pint size tyrant, other than there is group pressure to conform and allow this to happen. Perhaps too, all those years of living in an alternate universe has separated her followers from Reality. What a tragedy.”

     bemused said, “So far, my Insider Pages review is still up. Not only that, but already "2 out of 2 people found this review helpful."

     “Thanks, Hyeongsa for describing Tae Yun's reaction to being told off by Carson. It's consistent with what Anthony Storr says about gurus in his book Feet of Clay. I don't remember the exact words, but it's something like, "Gurus consider anything less than total agreement to be equivalent to hostility."

     “How ironic that Tae Yun tells her students, "Learn from your mistakes." They can do it, but she sure can't.

     “Her unwillingness to hear any negative feedback leads her to do some really stupid things, such as wandering around a semiconductor trade show in a mini skirt playing the flute, or proudly displaying an award from the Moonies.

     “Tae Yun's insisting that other people defend her in disagreements could imply a number of things. Maybe she's so irrational that she couldn't come up with her own logical counterargument to save her life. Maybe deep down she's so unsure of her students' loyalty that she needs them to prove it at the slightest sign of doubt. Maybe her need to project the image of a serene master leads her to insist that others get nasty for her. I'd vote for all of the above.”

     Kathy said, “As we all know Tae Yun pits everyone against everyone. Deep down she doesn't trust anyone. Must be because she knows if we really know or knew her, you wouldn't trust anything she says. Nothing will ever make her happy or complete. Probably why she needs all those fake titles. She is an empty person. A note to all those in col...Nothing you give her for her 64th birthday will be what she really needs. Even so, I will keep her in my prayers.”

     bemused said, “Like everyone else, Tae Yun wants to be loved. She expends a great deal of effort creating an image that she thinks is utterly lovable. She also expends effort carefully selecting and training people to love that image. Such effort reveals that she secretly doubts her lovability; people who are confident of their lovability don't go to such extremes.

     “Because she expends so much effort, she feels entitled to be loved. If people she hasn't trained fail to love her, she can dismiss them as inferior people, but not in public, where her lovable image could be compromised. If people she has trained fail to love her, she feels justified in punishing them in private. She reframes her punishment as an expression of her love for them, both to get them to accept the punishment and to preserve her lovable image in their eyes.

     “None of this works. The greater the gap between the lovable image she creates and her real self becomes, the more her doubt about her lovability grows. The more doubt she feels, the more she tries to perfect her lovable image and the more love she demands. None of the love ever reaches her. It never gets past her image.

     “What's worse, those who see past her image to the deceitful, conniving, vindictive aspects of her personality stop loving her. This adds to her secret doubt, her fear that her real self is unlovable. She desperately tries to keep those whom she has trained to love her from falling out of love. If she fails, she tries to erase these people from her environment and her history, both in public and in private.

     “She has erased much, but she hasn't been able to erase us. We have been able to warn other people about her. We may have even contributed to her losing some of those who once loved her. This comes at a cost, however: to the extent that we have succeeded in tarnishing her image, we have aggravated her basic problem. Although Tae Yun alone is to blame if COL has worsened, she is partly reacting to us. Then again, she would get crazier and COL would get worse even if we did nothing.”

     Bemused said, “I was reminded of Tae Yun's bat-crazy attempt to get CA and me back together during that time. CA wasn't communicating with me at all, whether overseas or briefly visiting home. I told Tae Yun that if we were going to get back together, I wanted him to send me one email a week. She said, “ CA was "afraid he would say the wrong thing." If this fear was preventing him from contacting me at all, why did he even want a relationship? And if I was the one she was trying to motivate, why did she totally reject my simple and reasonable request?

     “Tae Yun said I should want a "spiritual" relationship, in which we just "hold each other in our hearts." I told her, "My telepathy isn't that good." I also reminded her that she expected journals from all her COL students. Wasn't this the same thing?

      “Here are Tae Yun's "couples counseling" methods based on my observations:

      “Be sure to take sides, even if both people have valid complaints. Tae Yun sides with the man unless the woman is a far more dedicated student. (She doesn't approve of gay relationships.)

     bemused said, “If the person whose side you've taken is neglecting or emotionally abusing the other person, ignore it. Someone (the man) always has to be the dominant partner. Always accept only the point of view of the person whose side you've taken. If the other person claims to be misunderstood, refuse to let them explain.

     “If either person is upset, don't let the couple talk to each other directly. This makes it easier to lie to one person about what the other one said. If the person whose side you've taken has poor communication skills, tell them communication isn't important anyway. In fact, communication can be downright dangerous. If the person whose side you've taken feels hurt, don't require that they explain why. It's enough just to make the other person feel guilty.

      “The ideal spiritual relationship requires no talking or physical contact. Contact should be kept to a minimum, with Tae Yun's supervision. If the person whose side you've taken is cheating with a hooker, don't tell the other person. It's not important if it's just "earthly" contact and not "spiritual" in any way.”

     bemused said, “Tae Yun's trying to get CA and me back together after I'd already left COL and Lighthouse made no sense to me and still doesn't. What was she hoping to achieve?

     “If she was trying to keep CA from hiring hookers by giving him a commitment to me to keep, she was bound to fail if there wasn't any real relationship between us. CA had much more respect for Tae Yun than for me. If his commitment to her "teaching" wasn't enough to restrain him, how would "keeping me in his heart" make any difference?

     “If she was trying to keep me from drifting away, her plan backfired. I became more angry and disillusioned. Normally if you want to persuade someone to do something, you give them something they want. She didn't do that. Neither my desire to please her nor my memories of the early years with CA were strong enough to motivate me. I wanted her to respect my wishes, and she didn't. Instead, she belittled them.

     “Through all this, I didn't know what CA wanted. The only clue was an email he finally wrote me when I pressured him. He had freaked out when I asked to discuss whether to have children and if so, when. He misunderstood and thought I wanted a baby right then. Tae Yun was no help; see point 4 of my previous post.

     “He said that my breaking up with him hurt him, but his non-response at the time led me to believe that he didn't want a relationship either. What was I supposed to conclude? He also resented that I called him a "workaholic." Then he proceeded to tell me all about how his work-related goals were everything to him.

     “It's just as well that it didn't work out. He turned out to be a traditional success-obsessed, communication-challenged, emotionally constipated male. He would do better with a traditional helpmate female. I hope he has found someone more suited to his temperament and lifestyle than I would have been.

     “As for Tae Yun, she has no business counseling couples or anyone else. Her methods are contrary to every established, tested principle of marriage therapy. Good therapists don't take sides unless someone is being abused. In that case, they side with the victim, taking great care not to expose the victim to further danger.

     “Good therapists teach communication skills and encourage their use. Good therapists want the couples they work with to "graduate" from therapy at some point.

     “With CA and me, Tae Yun's ineptitude resulted in a comedy of errors and some frustration on all sides, but neither CA nor I were seriously harmed.

     “I shudder to think of the damage Tae Yun could do to people in a relationship involving mental illness or abuse. This is why I bring up the subject again, despite its irrelevance to my continuing happily married life. “

     bemused said, “I didn't know about CA's adventures in Asia with prostitutes, which started before I left COL and Lighthouse, until I discovered a cached page from cultmaster.com that included one of the journals he turned in to Tae Yun. I found it as a result of the same search that made me aware of Bullshido, more than eight years after I turned in my keys to the Jung Suwon academy. If I had known about this when Tae Yun was trying to get CA and me back together, I would have been completely unwilling. So of course Tae Yun didn't tell me.”

     Failed Student said, “Bemused, your recent posts have given me much food for thought. Obviously, Tae Yun is the grandmaster of disruptive advice and manipulation, and her method of keeping each and every party in ignorance of others actions and verbalizations is not unique. In fact, I have encountered another person who now I believe may either have been Tae Yun's mentor in such skullduggery or perhaps even in cahoots.

     “Needless to say, I find this very disturbing. Nonetheless, I have shared my doubts with others of that person's acquaintance, so we are now forearmed and forewarned, and nothing further shall come of it. Thanks for your input.”

     bemused said, “The culties have managed to remove the negative reviews from Insider Pages. Those negative reviews weren't even all that bad compared to what's written here.”

     bemused said, “I've decided not to read my old journals, unless I just have to look something up. It only makes me angry. What's odd is what does and doesn't still rankle me after all these years. I don't care that CA was hiring hookers. It still bothers me that Tae Yun tried to get us back together and didn't tell me about this. I don't care that CA misunderstood me. It still bothers me that Tae Yun raped my mind, insisting that what CA thought I said was what I actually felt. CA didn't have much experience with women, and it showed. Tae Yun lied and refused to hear the truth. CA acted like a jerk, but he can learn to treat his future loves better. Tae Yun can't learn from her mistakes.”

     bemused said, “I hadn't thought about that "kids?" misunderstanding with CA for years, but reading an old journal entry got me puzzling about it again. Suddenly it hit me, and I wonder why I hadn't considered it before: maybe CA wasn't reacting to what I said but the mere fact of my bringing up the subject at all. Maybe he thought I was hinting, being indirect. And maybe he interpreted my repeated attempts at clarification as hinting all the more. If that was the case, it didn't matter what words I used.

     “So I dusted off "That's Not What I Meant!" by Deborah Tannen and started rereading about direct vs. indirect communication styles. The difference is a matter of degree. No one can be totally direct, because things like tone of voice and context always send messages beyond the words.

     “No one can be totally indirect either, if they want to have half a chance of getting their message across. But when one person is more direct than the other, misunderstandings can arise.

     “Perhaps my calling CA "communication-challenged" was a bit unfair. If our communication styles were different, both of us were communication-challenged with respect to each other. I probably took him too literally and he probably interpreted things in what I said, “ that I didn't intend. Oh well.

     “Then I started thinking about how Tae Yun uses indirect communication. She sends lots of hints to students about what she expects and gets upset if no one catches them. I don't take hints well, so I caught very few, until near the end, when I started seriously questioning her motives. One of the reasons Sarah K. rose fast in the ranks was because she took hints really well (Tae Yun once complained about having to wait for her nail polish to dry, and not long after that Sarah K. bought her a hand dryer).

     “Tae Yun also criticizes people indirectly. For example, in response to my request for CA to email me once a week, Tae Yun said, “, in JSW class no less, "Some of my students don't trust me and are selfish." Her message did double duty: she slammed me while prompting all the other listening students to wonder how they might have been distrustful and selfish.

     “Tae Yun infers all sorts of ulterior motives in other people, most of them negative. Sometimes she is right, but sometimes she is wrong, even absurdly wrong. Why did that new female student forget to pin her uniform?

      “Because she was trying to show off her bust line to one of the instructors. Why did the girlfriend of that student get pregnant? Because she wanted to trap him. Why is that young male student showing off in class? Because he has the hots for Tae Yun.

     “Yet as much as Tae Yun expects her hints to be taken and thinks she knows other people's intentions, she doesn't allow her own motives to be questioned. When I was there, her favorite dodge was, "I have satellite view," meaning that we earthbound mortals couldn't understand her motives well enough to question them.

     “She also doesn't allow her "insights" to be questioned. Most people make inferences, but they're open to, and even eager for, a Reality check. Not Tae Yun. That new student really was coming on to the instructor, not merely forgetful. That girlfriend's pregnancy really was a trap, not an accident. That male student really was lustful, not proud. In her mind, anyway.

     “Most regular martial arts students were unaware of what Tae Yun thought of them. But if you were in COL and Tae Yun decided that you were thinking or feeling a certain way, that was THE TRUTH, and if you didn't accept it she would wear you down until you did. There is a term for this: mind rape. Tae Yun is a mind rapist.”

     hyeongsa said, “Brilliant insight Bemused. Classic examples of Tae Yun's manipulation of her students lives. Yeah, mind rapist is what she is. If only we would have seen it sooner.

     “She has to be in control of her student's relationships and the way we were made to write everything in our journals, she knew just how to play us. Wake up COL!

     “Stop being "enablers" and allowing Tae Yun to continue her evil ways. Without all of you she is nothing.”

     Kathy Kim said, “I agree, she is nothing good. If she was she wouldn’t be so needy. She would be able to satisfy herself for who she is. But all these titles makes her think she is something more. She thinks she is God, One big clue she's not all that. Look at God's ways and her ways...totally different. It is what he can do for you not what you can do for him. With her it is what you can do for her, not what she can do for you. She may have you think she is doing something for you, but she isn't. you have smarts, weigh the situation.”

     bemused said, “Alas, seeing reason won't prompt any COL member to leave. For me and for other ex-COL I've talked to, the motivation to join was emotional, and so was the motivation to leave.

     “When I joined COL I was depressed, lonely, tired of my life, and just getting over a bad breakup with an emotionally distant guy. It's kind of funny, but when I left COL I was also depressed, lonely, tired of my life, and just getting over a bad breakup with an emotionally distant guy.

     “Then there were Tae Yun's illusions and my feelings about them. She was going to save the world with her special wisdom, and I was going to help her, supposedly.

     “When I joined I was excited, hopeful, awed, and in love. When the illusions cracked and then shattered, when I saw her as just another New Age narcissist, I was angry, sad, disgusted, and I felt betrayed.

     “I joined COL to chase a dream, becoming an instructor, and I left COL to chase a different dream, becoming a songwriter. After I got my black belt I felt profoundly disappointed because it wasn't how I thought it would be. Since leaving I've been somewhat disappointed by the music business, but never by the music itself. It's the difference between chasing someone else's dream and chasing my own.”

     bemused said, “Asking about diet and workout frequency is a start, but it's not enough.  Most leaders of workout programs want to know about medical history, injuries, disabilities, age, weight, and previous experience with specific physical activities.     Although not all such leaders are required to keep answers confidential, most do anyway.

    “Mental health professionals want to know about more than just stress, sociality, and family relationships, although these are important. They ask about previous experience in counseling or therapy. They ask about substance abuse and previous mental health diagnoses. They are required to keep answers confidential.

     “The most glaring omission is any question of what people in the program would want to accomplish for themselves. What's in it for them? Tae Yun seems to assume that whatever she offers is valuable simply because she is offering it. She used to ask questions like this. I guess trying to help people with real problems just got too tedious and burdensome.” 

     Failed Student said, “Hello KitTae Yuni and your friend: I rarely post here since my experience with Tae Yun was ages ago, but I guess a leopard doesn't change it's spots...

     “I remember the mirror exercise all too well. What I saw in the reflection was a very, very unhappy person, and that too was a sign among many for me. I think that Tae Yun plays upon whatever the viewer perceives and magnifies it so that it becomes a Reality to that person. I know the night before her two students threw a rock through my window, I saw dark clouds and I mentioned this to her, not knowing at that time who was to blame for the vandalism. So she had me deluded into believing that there was negative energy surrounding me that caused this incident to happen. In retrospect, this was a crock.

     “Those practices of intense staring cause images to be burned temporarily into the retina, and are an engineered effect. I also found support and comfort within the church. I do keep this in balance with other aspects of my life however. When I was one of Tae Yun's robots, my life was out of balance. or rather, I had no life outside of what was then ATC.

Thanks for joining this discussion. Peace – FS.”

      Carson said, “Does anyone know if RDP is still there? He followed me into training after Tae Yun 'suggested' I divorce him. He was a good man, and I at times have felt regret for following Tae Yun's instructions. Once, several years after the divorce, Tae Yun told me that he had told her that he wished he had never married me and wished he had never met me. Knowing now how she manipulates, I do not know if that was true or not. But I do wish him well, and hope he has a good life.”

     Carson said, “Yes, it is quite clear that COL, JSW, NS, AH, LWS, and whatever other companies Tae Yun heads will not outlive her. She does not teach her managers to think for themselves, and she has not built anything that will last.

     “Shortly before I left, Tae Yun had the LWS managers read a book called 'Built to Last'. The book is a study of several highly successful corporations and the qualities that made them last long after the founders had passed on. Tae Yun's 'empire' has none of the qualities, and is completely built around her. Once she is gone, or can no longer exert the control over others, the 'empire' will collapse.”

     Carson said, “It is as Bemused has said - it's a very gradual thing. Tae Yun is very good at picking up on a person's greatest desire or need and promising to fulfill that - for me it was having a purposeful life and helping to make the world a little bit better by the time I die than it was when I was born. Not long after I started training I mentioned to EAS that there were some tensions / issues in my marriage. RDP and I were fighting at times, and I also felt like he was losing respect for me as a person, and I didn't know how to 'fix' it. EAS suggested I speak with Tae Yun, because GMTae Yun had helped her to work through some issues with her marriage, and Tae Yun 'didn't want her students to start getting divorces, it would make her look bad.' I had the 'class' with Tae Yun, but rather than help with suggestions to save the marriage, she told me that I had a purpose to my life, and that my marriage had served a purpose in my growth as a person, but it was time to move forward, and that's why I was feeling so much stress - I was having trouble letting go. She played right into my greatest desire at the time - the desire to make more of my life and to be a part of something bigger than myself.”

     kungfu4u said, “Tae Yun Kim stole years of my life and destroyed the relationships that I had with my family and friends. She is a modern day master thief not martial arts master. She manipulated us, stole our time, money, mind, freewill and souls. Through Jung Suwon and Lighthouse Worldwide Solutions she continues to brainwash her students, employees and worshippers.

     “Her life is a lie and the truth should be told over and over again. There was no Jodie Foster, no Robin Williams, no Hilary Clinton or any other famous interview or relationship. No Barbara Walters, no Ethel Kennedy or any other real celebrity sent her flowers. She is a fake and a fraud that hides behind her instructors, make-up, jewels, clothes and plastic surgery.

     “Tae Yun is alive but rotting from inside because she knows that her best years have already been and are gone. There will be no COL City, no Oprah interview, no movie and no Korean presidency.

     kungfu4u said, “Failed Student: I was there longer than I should have been but not as long as most victims. Unfortunately Tae Yun is still residing here in the Bay Area and hasn’t gone back to Korea yet. Maybe she could go there and help with the reunification process again.”

     Failed Student said, “kungfu4u -- I doubt that she'd be welcome in Korea. From what I have read here, she scammed plenty of money over there and I am sure that is not appreciated.

     Shadow Dancer said, “Maybe she could become Kim Jong Il's love slave.”

Failed Stuident said, “A few corrections on the details KitTae Yuni: I do not believe her brother trained on a base. He is about six years younger than she and he would have been a teenager at that time. Also, as a civilian, I don't think training would have been allowed for non military personnel, but that's just my guess.
     “Tae Yun's husband was Arthur L. Fontaine, not Mark Fontaine. He may have changed it when he moved to California. Her parents and brother came after her...if what Art told me was the truth...that he paid lots of money to get them over here.
     “I have heard so many stories from the two of them, I don't know WTF to believe. Art said he worked for the CIA...a lie no doubt, since one does not speak of this ...ever...if they are employed by that agency.”

     Rossanna said, “Hi KitTae Yuni..for clarification..giandomenico was a windsurfer who was brought to kim by his coach to help him win the national championships...I believe he was 19 at the time and purportedly, because of her meditation classes etc, he won. He was lured , as you call it by her promises of fame and fortune and began working for LWS as a sales rep. He went up in the ranks in record time and was executive vp of LWS by the time he was in his late 20's and the president of another one of her companies, MorningPlanet based in Milpitas with an office in the Philippines.
     “He was removed or left depending on whose version you want to believe in June of 2006 when Kim found out about his relationship with another COL member. Giandomenico was never rich but he did have a flair for sales which made him an asset to Kim.
…

     “The information here, the experiences shared have brought healing to those who were hurt and is meant to serve a heads up to those who may be caught up in the same situation in the future. Everone who reads this will decide for themseves whether or not the writers are credible. They will then make their own decisions and nothing can be done if they choose to believe kim over us. I am glad that your friend has seen the light and that these threads have helped. If there was only one person saved because of the experiences shared, that is fantastic in my book but as long as there are people alone and searching, vulnerable and weakened by life's challlenges , there will always be a "COL and a "Kim" who will try to "save" and "lead" them.
     “Maybe instead of spending so much energy focusing on her, we can try to focus on helping those self same people before they even get to that point. Teenagers, young people, abused women and men, the lonely , the insecure, the desperate. Sometimes all it takes is a random act of kindness. Just saying.”

     The post on the web about Tae Yun coaching a women’s team to the Olympics is a fraud. She assisted the coaches. She was not their coach.

     carson said, “Thanks AiTouch! Wow - this is just full of lies! Coached the TEAMS? a few individuals who happened to be a member of one of the teams perhaps, but certainly not any entire teams! And that's just the start. It's so sad - if Tae Yun just stayed to the truth there would still be many impressive awards, even if known that many were actively pursued by the 'inner circle' students who wrote over-the-top letters and essays professing why Tae Yun should get the award (I know, I was one) - but that was how many of the awardees of these awards got them. But there are so many outright lies here - it negates all of what may be the truth. As Bemused has said, Tae Yun knows that the awards are hollow, and so Tae Yun keeps requiring more and more - so much so that she'll greatly exaggerate her actual accomplishments, and even make them up completely. If only Tae Yun listened to her own teaching - be true to yourself.”

     And carson continued, “Don't be easily fooled - Koren culture is very much who you know and how successful you appear, and has very little to do with actual fact. Those of us who were on 'the inside' for a long time have seen it work. Tae Yun has built a very good appearance of being who she wants people to think she is, and the more legitimate people she can bring into her web, the more legitimate she appears.

     bemused said, “The issue of whether Tae Yun is a legitimate Grandmaster is separate from the issue of her abusing her students. Some legitimately credentialed therapists sleep with their patients, and their credentials don't make it okay.
     “Some of the Bullshido folks researched Tae Yun's martial arts background and verified that she legitimately obtained a third-degree black belt. Her claims aren't entirely fraudulent, just exaggerated.”

     Shadow Dancer added, “(AI Touch) The presence of a title actually means nothing. I am the greatest Grandmaster of my own style: "Pet Kat Do". I only have one student... my apprentice: Sweetums. She and I work out a few hours every day. Just like the Sith there is only one master and one apprentice. Can you dispute that I am legit?
     “You may desire to dig a bit deeper into those titles and awards to see how they were obtained. Kim's doctorate is an honorary degree from a small college in Korea. She never studied there. She never wrote a thesis. She never defended that thesis to legitimately obtain her degree. It was a 'gift' from the college. Do you think that gift was given without strings?
     “Kim is a dame comandatrice in the order of constantine. Please do a bit of research on this organization and you will see that it is an 'honor mill' that, according to their prior sponsors, is issuing awards without legitimate provenance.
     “Kim's people love to show the picture of her with George Bush Sr. Do you know the story of it? It was obtained during a fund raising visit during the Reagan years when he was the VP. Kim had been selected by the Korean community to give him a bouquet of flowers. She was supposed to do this and then get out of the way for the important members of the Korean community to hold their meetings. But the 'flower girl' pulled off a coup and got her picture taken. It now holds a special place of honor. Do you think she tells people that she was just a flower girl who tricked her community? How do you think she presents the picture?
     “By all means, investigate her... but don't rely on the simple presence of a title. Learn where it came from and how it was obtained. Perhaps the best solution would be for you to visit them. After you are with them for about 10 years, you can then speak from first hand knowledge about what is fiction and what is real.”

     Then Kathy Kim also added, “Same thing with her picture of Barbara Bush. She had us buy seats at a couple of tables at a luncheon in SF, so that made her a VIP because she had purchased the tables. Then there was a picture taking opportunity in the back. Tae Yun got her picture taken with Mrs Bush. If fact, so did I. So there was no honor there. Just a photo opportunity. There was no conversation, no words of wisdom, just a photo oppurtunity. If you read the website (which seems completely legit) it states she's a grandmaster of Tae kwon do. That's the title I was referring to, not her title as grandmaster of Ju Suwon.”

     And Shadow Dancer said, “Kim cannot produce any credentials beyond having tested for 3rd Dan in Tang Soo Do. She is free to call herself a GM in any art that is original to her. Where does the TKD fit in? Her early training stories bounce between having been taught by her uncles and some traveling monk in the mountains.
     “She also claims to be a CEO. Actually, that is true... LWS gave her the title. But, she knows practically nothing about the technology, can't even understand a balance sheet, and takes pride in her computer illiteracy. One needs to consider how she acquired her titles and honors in order to decide if her claims have any validity. Feel free to buy into her BS.”

     AI Touch replied, “So I'm naive for buying what it says in the Tae kwon do hall of fame and other places instead of what is to me is sounding like some sort of strange conspiracy theory. I have heard her talked about by legitimate masters as a grandmaster in Tae kwon do and she is acknowledged as such by the ITF. You have not said anything so far which I have seen verified, and seem to be suggesting that the ITF gives out the title of Grandmaster solely for political purposes which sounds pretty sketchy to me. I don't think the ITF just hands out the title of Grandmaster and I don't see where you're coming from calling that BS.

      “Do you really think an internet forum is better suited to determine if someone is a legitimate Grnadmaster than an international martial arts federation? You need to get real and know that to an outsider like myself the ITF has way more credibility in determining. Now whether she abuses her students I'm still undecided.”

     Then Failed Student added, “Having trained with Tae Yun Kim when she was known as Kyong Ae Fontaine in Vermont way back in the eighties, I can only direct you to my many posts if you have doubts as to her abuse of students. As I stated in one of my first posts, everything I write here I will attest to under oath in a court of law, should that be necessary.
     “In the three years I trained with her, she went from her stated fifth dan to grandmaster status without testing, and that occurred about the time she broke from her brother and started her own school - ATC. I never saw any certificates showing any rank.
     “Tae Yun told me that "if the Creater made her a man, she would rule the world". I leave it to you to be the judge of such a comment.
     “AiTouch, until you experience for yourself what many others have endured at the hands of Tae Yun, you cannot blatantly dismiss these posts as fabrications. Then again, I wouldn't suggest that.

     And Shadow Dancer said, “If you don't understand the concepts of money and purchasing titles, then yes... you are naive. I was there, I was one of those who helped her purchase her honors and political influence. So... if you are dazzled by a title... then good for you. You are exactly the person she is looking for. You haven't been able to explain how she got where she is. She is only 'officially' credentialed up to 3rd dan in Tang Soo Do. How that gets her to grandmaster in Tae Kwon Do has never been explained other than cronyism and political favors. Why don't you back up your awe of her position with actual verifiable credentials instead of a bestowed title. She has enough of those and very few legitimate ones. I was there. Where were you? Good luck!

     AiTouch said, “I was listening to your posts leaning on the side of believing they were legitimate but I'm clearly not now. I'll admit you had me going with
     “I was looking up churches and one that I found was instructing it's members to always allow visitors to express doubts, concerns and have questions regarding faith and religion. When I came here and expressed doubts as to her credentials being nonexistant based on what I had seen I was immediately labeled a naive idiot who buys into everything Tae Yun says and is in total awe of her accomplishments(lol). I took your claims legitimately when I found you on a google search and decided to post, but it's obvious by your response you just want to group bash her and not have a discussion of her which would include things like doubts or looking into credentials.
     “I'll agree that she seems very cult like, but you're not at all better, only people that believe the same things about Tae Yun are accepted by you and those who have doubts are outcasted are naive and illogical and stupid. Do you really think people are going to take your claims seriously when all you seem to care about is trashing her?(made despicable by the fact that you are pretending to be healing and warning others when this is just a calculated strike against her character). I'm sorry that I wasted my time here on what are clearly unverifiable(and honestly, clearly exaggerated) claims by an angry group reduced to speaking on an internet forum(acting all afraid to speak out which is pathetic). She may very well abuse her students, but it's impossible to tell by the crap you try peddling here.
     “I won't waste my time reading your responses about how only people that see the light and open their eyes and accept the truth the Tae Yun is this evil person can truly join in your group and have the privilege of acceptance on this forum, and how I'm just blown away by the title of grandmaster(I'v trained under three founders) and can't see the truth of her past her shining accomplishments and unbelievable charisma. What a joke you people are.”

     Then carson said, “AiTouch - please don't judge all of us on this forum based on one or two people's comments, which may have been written out of anger or frustration at the time. There are 20+ of us who have been posting here.
     “Most of us have no desire to convert anyone to our beliefs. We only want to warn and be a resource for those who are in Tae Yuns circle, if they start to wonder or doubt. If this forum had been around while I was inside, I would have gotten out much sooner. Instead, since we are all told not to speak with each other, and through the system of journaling directly to Tae Yun, anyone who mentions any doubt is immediately reported and publicly humiliated and punished, I had no source of information other than Tae Yun.
I'm sorry that you feel you were put upon in any way in this forum. Why the hostility? Do you WANT to believe that Tae Yun is legit?

     Shadow Dancer said, “Actually Carson, I am unsympathetic to AiTouch. He/She comes here and declares Tae Yun legit because she is declared a TKD grandmaster by an international body. He has been unable to reveal how this can be since her only credentials are in Tang Soo Do. I remember the time when criticisms about Kim's lack of credentials were published back in the late 80's. We tried to, but were unable to counter the accusations because there were no documents and kim couldn't even name the organizations we could have gone to for duplicate certificates.”

     carson said, “Hi Shadow! Good points all, and I, too, am unsympathetic about anyone who will come on this forum and claim that what we say is untrue, when they know nothing of it. I'll admit, however, that had I not lived it myself, I would not have believed some of the things Tae Yun has done, and we felt compelled/coerced to accept, to be possible. Some of the responses to Ai, however, being written, with no voice inflection and no body language attached, came across a little harsh, and he/she took them personally, which is unfortunate. Having the advantage of knowing almost everyone, and feeling like I know Failed Student through her many posts, I know the posts to Ai were not meant to be personal or in any way hostile, but he/she had no way of knowing that.

     Shadow Dancer said, “Hi Carson... you are absolutely correct. Without voice inflections or a direct history in the situation, our comments (mine in particular) may have come across as harsh. Alas, I have had too much direct experience to have my knowledge overturned by kim getting an award. It was not my intention to be harsh... only directly on point.