Failed Student said, “bemused - Your experience in the women's house of detention sounds like a living hell - damned if you do and damned if you don't, and big brother is watching you.
“I wouldn't have lasted there more than a day. I'm just independent and would have pushed back so fast they would have been glad to get rid of me. I have to concur that there are those that need to be told what to do and all that. It may be a result of a lack of self-image or self-esteem or both.
“It may just be easier for them to have their life managed, from the moment they get up till they get their limited sleep.
“I would hope that within the minds of those still in col there is a vestige of individualism, and that one day they will exercise that after realizing that anything they achieve in life is of their own doing and not because of Tae Yun Kim, the great grand scam master.”
bemused said, “Why do I criticize Tae Yun when she's just another two-bit New Age cult leader, like so many others in coastal California? There are governments and corporations that do global damage and are far more worthy of criticism. I've criticized the big guys too, but with Tae Yun, it's personal.
“Besides, they only way to protect people from the Tae Yuns of the world is to expose them one at a time. I was there, I know about some of the things she did, so I am in a position to do that. I have a few pieces of the puzzle that is Tae Yun's life.”
Failed Student said, “We all have pieces of that puzzle that is Tae Yun Kim ,and once we assemble them, she's history.”
bemused said, “Failed Student - You have to realize that people waited hoping to be invited to live in COL. It was advertised as a rare honor, as a once-in-many-lifetimes opportunity for spiritual education. You did get more attention from Tae Yun than those not in COL. There were also special classes and events, some of which were fun. And people who commit to something don't like to admit it was a mistake. People stayed in COL for the same reason people stay in bad marriages.
“Our arguing was a sign that we retained our individuality. So was the cliquishness, much as I hated it. Otherwise we would have just stayed out of each other's way, accepted whatever we were given, and shown no preferences for each other's company.”
Failed Student said, “This MA sounds like a real bully. When you mention that he said women "disobeyed" him, it reminds me of what a tyrant would say. I do not understand how women would tolerate a man pushing them around like that. It sounds like he is some kind of an enforcer, both with the women and the men. This is just so abnormal, to have someone in charge of you and watching what you did. Again I think of the FLDS compound where men would prevent people from escaping.”
“I guess I came to the realization that I didn't want special attention from Tae Yun Kim.. Maybe that was my ticket out, both emotionally and physically. Sounds like the sell for inclusion in COL was pretty good, but like a used car, you didn't find all of the problems until after you bought it.”
bemused said, “I don't remember if "disobeyed" was the exact word MA used. He wasn't much different from the other instructors who were assigned to lead a house. Most of them seemed to expect compliance and were more bewildered than angry when they didn't get it. Scott seemed to me like more of an "enforcer" type than MA was, although some might disagree.”
“It was interesting that the women's house was never led by a woman. When there was no instructor (2nd degree black belt or higher) in residence, we still had to defer to our seniors, and the most senior woman was sort of the leader by default, but she wasn't the official leader. By the time ES and KW became instructors, they lived with Tae Yun at COL1.
“Also, it was bad form to question an instructor. With your seniors, you had more leeway. Some women, notably SK, routinely challenged more senior women and were rarely punished for it. So the most senior woman had responsibility without full authority. At various times ES, KW, JL, and JC were in this position.
“The only time I was in this position was when COL was "officially" disbanded and a group of us lived in this awful house on Midwick. I had already been fired by Lighthouse and was intending to leave upon receiving my first paycheck from my new job. I had no authority, but by then I didn't want it anyway.”
Kathy Kim said, “I thank God I left when I did. I cannot believe some of the things that you all suffered.
“It sounds like she really had a meltdown....and then took it out on you. Bemused -as far as those that passed over your rank, Tae Yun used those that had something she wanted or she could manipulate the best. Those that would do all, including giving up their kids, so they could meet her needs. As you know I am very strong willed, but she knew what she could use me for and what would further her wants and needs. It is all about her! But she tries to make you think it is about you and others being helped. She is not dumb. She is a major manipulator. Who either has no heart or a cold heart. It must be hard to have to be her. Maybe when all the puzzle pieces are put together, the truth will be known to all.
How do you eat a monster? One bite at a time...”
Kathy Kim said, “Being Catholic and dealing in numerology and astrology are mortal sins. She needs to talk to a priest and find out if she is conducting herself as a practicing Catholic. It is also wrong that she has people bow to her. Maybe she can get an audience with the Pope to help her.”
TakeYourKin said, “Just wait for Sarah K. to be on our side. When she finally takes the blinders off. Generally, when people are so fanatical it is a means to compensate for their frailties. What an incredible tool and source she would be. Tick, tick, tick.”
Chicabonita said, “There is a reason why we all got bitchy with each other. When you make 10+ women live together and put all these restrictions on them, what do you expect? Plus, lets state the obvious. No one was getting laid either.”
bemused said, “Don't forget sleep and nutritional deprivation, the latter of which the guys had less of. And some of the guys were getting laid, ironically with prostitutes in Asia.”
bemused said, “I wouldn't give up hope, but I wouldn't hold my breath either. Some culties are loyal to the bitter end. I'll give an extreme example to illustrate my point. Nearly all of the followers of Jim Jones who died were at Jonestown. Nearly all of the followers who were not at Jonestown lived. The only deaths outside of Jonestown that occurred at about the same time were of a woman named Sharon and her children. When the suicide order was given, Sharon obediently slit her children's throats and then killed herself.
“Fanaticism usually begins as a way to compensate for frailties. Most people are lured into a cult at a vulnerable point in their lives. But after the cult personality forms and becomes established, the person's strengths return, and they are much like someone who was raised in a religion. They don't question what they believe. To be ready to leave, they may have to undergo a crisis as dire as the one they had at the time they joined.
“Sarah K. was very naive when she joined. She didn't have much self-esteem or much of a sense of her own identity. She rose through the ranks with unusual speed because she easily took to both following and giving orders. As Tae Yun would put it, she had "an empty cup."
“Critical thinking is an important part of what gets most people out of cults, which is why all cults discourage it. (Tae Yun's favorite ploy is to say, sarcastically, "You're too smart for me.") Sarah K. is intelligent but doesn't use reason much in her arguments. She makes an emotional appeal, then gets exasperated if it fails. (Comparing what she wrote in the Wikipedia comments with what MT wrote is telling. MT was very calm and rational.)
I would say that Sarah K. is one of the least likely to leave. But I won't mind if I'm proven wrong.”
Chicabonita said, “The women in COL that lived together weren't really allowed to openly change in front of each other. We couldn't be naked while undressing in front of other women. We had to be "modest". If COL women changed their underwear in front of others, there would be a journal entry about it. You always had to change under a towel or go into a private room. Otherwise we were considered to be too provocative.
Speaking of which, we there were problems if women wore thongs or bikini underwear. Especially in the earlier days of COL. Women had to wear "modest" underwear, like the granny panties that you buy at Wal-Mart.”
Failed Student said, “Omigod, what the bloody heck is wrong with this woman? Unless the women were into each other, I don't understand how you could be "provocative" by changing in front of each other. Keerist, at both the tennis and golf clubs I belong to, women walk around bare naked in the locker rooms, and nobody thinks anything of it. In fact, at the tennis club, there are several Japanese women that go around nude as they blow dry their hair and converse with each other, so I get the impression that Asians don't have a problem with nudity. I don't know why she has a hang up about it, but - once I was at her house and she had just finished bathing, and she was strutting around in the buff. Was she trying to be "provocative"? - hmm.....
“There was a post some time ago where Tae Yun Kim had taken the women of COL out to lunch, and then afterward had them all strip nude so she could comment on their imperfections and otherwise humiliate them. So these two situations do not jibe.
She doesn't like bikinis or "butt floss" underwear? Then why does she order her dainties from Fredericks of Hollywood? In the movie, "The Handmaid's Tale", which is about a futuristic society run by fundamentalist Christians, the women wear the "granny panties" that you mention Chica. I would imagine the women of FLDS wear this stuff too, or even worse, "Mormon Underwear" , which is padded to protect you in case you accidentally "touch" yourself.”
Carson said, “Wow, I'm so glad I found this site and you guys! I left about 3 1/2 years ago - after one of Tae Yun's public berating sessions where she chewed out 3 of us for not coming to see her a few nights before as she was getting ready to leave for a speaking engagement in New York. I had finished working another 14 hour day in a 3 1/2 year string of 14 hour days, and it was all I could do to drag myself to bed to get a few hours sleep so I could get up the next day and do it again. I figured there were plenty of other people to wish her well, and I needed my rest so I could do my best at LWS the next day, but obviously that was the wrong decision. So the evening she returned there was a COL class, and after some pleasant talk about her successes of the trip three of us were called to answer for 'not caring about her or LWS and being selfish and totally self-centered' That was the last straw - I figured I had nothing to lose and packed what I could in my car and left.
“In spite of her teaching that, if any of us left our lives would fall apart, I have built a really wonderful life. I had to start from nothing, though, and that was what kept me there as long as it did.
“Kathy - I'm glad to see you are doing well!
“And Chica - you've done well for yourself in spite of a very difficult childhood - I see that you have made great strides in coming to terms with it all.
“Ryan - you, too, I'm happy you are able to connect here.
“And all the others - I often wonder about you and have hoped you are doing well. And I often wonder about those I left behind - and hope they can somehow get themselves free. I know how very hard it is to leave, even when your 'inner voice' is screaming at you that it's all so wrong.
“I will admit, there is a fear factor in posting here. So far my life has been quiet and I've been able to live quite well with no interference from Tae Yun or COL or LWS.”
All of you - I wish you the best!
Carson said, “Oh - Bemused I forgot to mention - I'm so sorry about all the fights between us! It wasn't until a few months before I left that I started to see how much I had been manipulated over the years! It started out very small, simple statements made to me by Tae Yun or an instructor about how someone didn't like me, and as I accepted that, other statements were made. Eventually I believed that everyone hated me, that I was and would always be a failure, and that my only hope was to stay with Tae Yun in this life in hopes that I would redeem myself for the next one! Can you imagine how someone holding that belief would react to others? I'm very sorry for making life miserable for you and for others - I wasn't bipolar - just barely holding it together!!!
“Since I've left I don't think I've yelled at anyone. I've certainly not been angry much at all, and then only slightly. I guess living in such a mental and emotional hell for so long made me emotionally very strong - now that I'm in a normal world everything seems so easy to handle.
“Even so, I would like to sincerely apologize. I am not happy for how I treated others during the time I was in COL . I hope you are doing well and your life is a success, and you are writing wonderful songs!”
Shadow Dancer said, “Hey there Carson...I'm really glad to see that you made it here and are doing well! Bravo! I'm so sorry about the troubles that you had at COL, and the illness. I really hope all of the pain and misery is behind you. (hug) Shadow (aka: Chica & Ryan's old man).”
Carson said, “Well hello Shadow! Must say, I had no idea who you were. Love the cats! How are you?
“I had not really thought of trying to contact others who had left - Tae Yun talks badly about anyone who leaves and I think that manages to keep us separated almost as much as we were kept separate while in COL. I just happened to Google on Tae Yun to see if her Karma is catching up and found this thread. I can't say what a relief it is. I'm in a wonderful relationship, but 'my man' can't relate to what it was like - he thinks its stupid and crazy that I would have put up with it for so long. Only those who have been there can really understand. I think Bemused said, “ has summed it up very well in some of her writings. Thank you for writing back!”
Kathy Kim said, “Hi there Carson...welcome here.....hopefully you will join us here and be able to understand what some went through, that she never talked about. We lived together but were made to dislike each other. I tired to get hold of you, but didn't know how. Clar will give you his email address and then he will let you know how to get hold of me. I'd like to talk to you. Several of us have met again and lots of us have talked. I'm glad to hear you are well. The depths of Tae Yun are unbelievable. How did you know it was me? Because I listed my real name? lol As you read the posts it is easy to tell who is who. Did you start on the original thread? I remember when I started reading, boy I was drained by the time I caught up. Although I talked to Clar a long time ago, and Inside Edition. Looking forward to talking to you. Kathy.”
Carson said, “Hi Kathy! I've skipped through the threads, some of one and two, but then most of 3 cause I wanted to see how everyone is now. It's so great to find you here. And yes, thinking back we were manipulated to in many ways actually hate each other, all the time Tae Yun was talking about love and working together! I think I got along the worst with you and Bemused said, “, but I think we would actually be the best of friends otherwise. We are all three rather headstrong people, but now, looking back, I feel nothing but respect for you two! I certainly couldn't say the same for 15 years ago.
But even with it all I'm glad I went through the things - I really do believe it has made me a better person, certainly stronger, and much more compassionate of others!”
bemused said, “I'm sorry too, and I'm so glad to hear from you! I can also see how Tae Yun played us against each other. She was always telling us we had to get along, then planting suspicions with each of us about the other. What BS.
“Not just us, but everyone. In previous posts here I talked about how Tae Yun manipulated MP and me so MP would complain and Tae Yun would have an excuse to fire me from Lighthouse. For me it was just as well, but MP is still there. I don't blame MP, only Tae Yun.
“I was barely holding it together as well. I had hypothyroidism and iron-deficiency anemia, which made me depressed and exhausted, and a little medical attention after I left worked wonders. Remember those chemical sensitivities I had? Taking thyroid pretty much took care of those. And my food allergies are mere minor nuisances now.
“I'm especially glad to hear that you have a significant other. I've been married for 6 1/2 years now, to a wonderful man who sings with me on stage, among other things. My hubby didn't really understand cults either, but after being with me so long he probably qualifies as an honorary exer. The video Ryanbeld said, “ posted on page 8 of part 3 of this thread was recently very helpful in explaining my experiences to my mom-in-law. I'm thinking of sending the link to more of my rallies.
“And yes, I'm writing and performing my own songs. I'm not about to give up my day job (music doesn't pay much), but I'm enjoying it.
“If you email Jacob said, “, he can give you my email. Or, for just $20 per year, you can join Bullshido and send private messages to everyone else who posts here. I'd love to catch up.”
Carson said, “Hi all! I spoke with Kathy last night - we had a wonderful talk - her grandkids, life after COL, our experiences, where we are now and where we are going with our lives. Nothing like that would have been possible while we were both in COL. Besides being suspicious of each other (manipulated to be that way) we were 'strongly discouraged' from developing any sort of personal friendships, and plans for the future were only supposed to be what Tae Yun Kim had told us we would do. If anyone spoke about anything else, or started developing personal friendships, they would be reported through journals to Tae Yun. Everyone was supposed to write journal entries daily and turn them in to her, and encouraged to 'exercise our awareness' by reporting on others. I knew for years that there was something wrong, but I always found ways to justify it all to myself (and with the help of the official spin-doctoring, of course.) And yes, Tae Yun did recommend that I divorce my husband of 6 years about 6 months after I started training - we were having some issues and I went to her to ask her advice on how to smooth things over and save the marriage, but the 'lesson' I received was quite the opposite. I hear that my ex-husband is still with her - I wonder if he knows she was the one that split us up? And even if he reads this he probably won't believe it.
“I don't know how successful we can be at helping anyone already deeply imbedded in her system to see the truth - but we can try to save those who are just being recruited and help those who do decide to leave with the transition.
Kathy Kim said, “Good morning Carson. Yes that was quite some talk last night. I love to compare notes. Who better to talk to than someone that has been there, done that. When you are there you don't get a chance to talk personal and honestly to each other. Then she tells you what someone supposedly said, “ about you. This is to put a block between any relationship forming right away. Also it is done to see if what she tells that person about another person, if the person she told, will hold it in confidence. Also to get to the inner circle, you can't question anything Kim says. I'm ashamed about how gullible, I was, when I was one of the most street smart of the people there, at the time. It took me a long time to see her true colors and lack of moral values. My integrity was more important in the end than staying with her. I could not help ruin a young mans life. I had let the truth out about her and let him decided if he loved her enough to stay with her, or if he thought what she was doing and had done was something that totally turned him away from her. His high moral values, most certainly, made him leave right after he learned the truth about her lies. Seems like she has really gotten worse since he decided to leave her immediately. Since I enlightened him to the truth, makes her hate me the most. Course maybe Adam G has that distinction now.
“As the world turns in Tae Yun's environment. Come one, come all and share your experiences so others can learn the truth.”
Carson said, “ I don't know how successful we can be at helping anyone already deeply imbedded in her system to see the truth - but we can try to save those who are just being recruited and help those who do decide to leave with the transition.”
Carson said, “Thank you, Chicabonita! I can relate to Adam G's situation a little - there were a few times that I was directed by Tae Yun to be very harsh with people (as when she put me in charge of COL3, and when I first started as M Palmer's manager) and when it backfired, I was blamed and Tae Yun never said, “ anything to others that I had been doing what I was told. It was very hard trying to follow her instructions and being so harsh with others, and I hated it. But I also still believed in 'our purpose' and wanted to do whatever I could to eventually get us all to a place where we could help people. I still believed in the dream of 'COL City'
“Funny, now that I've left and am working for Cal Poly I have had the opportunity to meet some very amazing people - I have gone to two talks and sat with, eaten with, and spoken with two very incredible people who really are helping others - Barbara Martinez Jitner and Bill Strickland. Barbara has been and is helping to expose the exploitation and murder of workers in the sweat-shop factories in Mexico just across the US border, putting herself in harms way as an undercover investigative reporter to get to the details of what and how it is happening and to work to affect real change. Bill Strickland started a program for at-risk youth in Pittsburgh's North Side, and a state-of-the-art training facility for out-of work and unskilled poor.
He has since opened schools and training facilities in 3 other Cities, has plans for five more (with a goal of 200 world-wide, eventually), and even met with Israeli and Palestinian leaders to develop a similar facility in the Middle East, getting those two sides to work together.
“And neither Bill nor Barbara spoke about themselves and their accomplishments, or gave themselves titles, or wanted money - they just wanted to make a difference. And through making a difference they are gaining great rewards and the respect of others.
“People who demand respect will never really have it - it must be earned based on your deeds. And if you are humble, without a scrap of arrogance, the respect will come even faster and greater. A person's demand for respect only diminishes and weakens whatever real respect there may be and leads to an ever-accelerating downward spiral.”
bemused said, “Carson - I can relate to Adam G's situation a little - there were a few times that I was directed by Tae Yun to be very harsh with people (as when she put me in charge of COL3, and when I first started as M Palmer's manager) and when it backfired, I was blamed and Tae Yun never said, anything to others that I had been doing what I was told. It was very hard trying to follow her instructions and being so harsh with others, and I hated it.
“It seems Tae Yun played this good-cop/bad-cop game with many of the people she put in positions of authority, starting with Scott, and starting with Kathy among the women (sorry Kathy). Tae Yun delegated the harshness so she could enforce her orders yet still appear to be "compassionate." I complained about Kathy in my journals early in my training. Tae Yun apologized for Kathy's behavior and told me that Kathy was doing the best she could and that I should be nice to her.
“I thought Kathy was just "like that," but I now see that Kathy was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. So were all the "heavies" that Tae Yun put in charge. Maybe this is the case with Scott as well, but he has been playing that role for so long that it's probably part of who he is at this point.
“What a contrast with my current boss! He's really low-key, the most introverted effective manager I've ever met. He states what he expects, then trusts you to do your job. If you have an issue, he listens well and gives you the support you need. I have never heard him raise his voice, ever. If he has criticism, it is focused on the issue at hand and never personal. If you know something he doesn't, he isn't threatened. In fact, he's relieved that there's one more thing he doesn't have to think about.
PP got a tidbit from a former black belt who had to work for bemused. Yep, she was harsh, but perhaps it was the boss above her calling the shots.
Kathy Kim said, “No problem Bemused, But I did lack tack, and I didn't like being a boss of anyone. I do know that I don't ask people to do something I wouldn't do unless of course it was physically too hard for me. I know that the only way you guys could put up with my demands was because Tae Yun told you too. There was only one person I really didn't like, but there were a couple that I was aware of their manipulation. Scott was the leader and planned the whole thing, I believe. Tae Yun and him work hand and hand.”
bemused said, “Although I reached black belt and spent 10 years with Tae Yun, I was seldom in positions of authority, even among the women (many posts have gone over Tae Yun's sexism, I won't here). I led Jung Suwon classes and trained Lighthouse customers, but in those situations I was performing more than leading. Even before I started training, I could deal with an audience.
“My role at Lighthouse was fairly self-contained. When I worked for Sarah K. in QA, I focused on finding bugs, and otherwise my attitude toward Sarah K. was, "whatever." Sarah K. may have considered QA my primary task, but I didn't. I wrote the manuals. No one else in the company understood what I did. The downside of this was that my contribution wasn't appreciated because I made it look easy. The upside was that no one interfered. It was my island of sanity.
“Sometimes I did verbally abuse my juniors, which I regret. But for the most part I stayed out of the hierarchy and the politics. At the time I was frustrated at not getting much respect, but after seeing and hearing about what other people in authority went through, I'm relieved that I was spared.”
Carson said, “The verbal abuse was a part of the culture. We all tried to, consciously or subconsciously, emulate our seniors and learn from their example, and, ultimately, from Tae Yun's example. We wanted her approval and to be accepted into the inner circle, and we desperately tried to figure out what was required of us and to do it.
“Slowly, it dawned on me, subconsciously at first, what the secret was: obedience. Declaring intent to pursue musical interests was a way of testing the limits, which I found to be very tight. Realizing that Tae Yun wanted not students, but slaves, was the most shattering disillusionment I experienced in the process of leaving.
bemused said, “We wanted her approval and to be accepted into the inner circle, and we desperately tried to figure out what was required of us and to do it.
I was indeed desperate at times. I couldn't figure out how those in the inner circle got there: was it skill, excellent work, insight? I tried perfecting my techniques in the dojang, writing customer-lauded manuals for Lighthouse, understanding the philosophy in Tae Yun's books. It wasn't enough.
Carson said, “Yes, Bemused - obedience. Not just obedience, but blind and thoughtless obedience, without question and without adherence to any moral line other than Tae Yuns.
“Tae Yun seems to believe that the ends justify the means in all cases, and since her goals are 'God's goals', she can justify anything. Lying, cheating, stealing, harassing others, making fun of and abusing those who disagree with her, the list goes on. I had heard she even hinted to one now ex-student that she wanted him to kill a certain then ex-student who had very publically spoken up against her and ruined some of her major long-term plans. (Tae Yun herself even spoke of this) I have no way of knowing if it really happened, it is only a 'he-said, “, she-said, “' situation. I do know, however, that once a person starts down the road of justifying anything to themselves, thoughts of murder of those who oppose them can be one of the results.
Ryanbeld said, “They can stop using the name COL but it wouldn’t matter...that group will always be COL, and what would they call themselves if not COL? they're just shying from the spotlight, which in itself is ironic because kim loves the spotlight. it must only be the spotlight she can control.”
bemused said, “I started training less than a year after Carson did. From at least green belt on we tested for each rank together, including black belt. In both Jung Suwon and COL she was my immediate senior. We were probably as close to being equals as any two people could be in that intensely hierarchical environment.
“We also had some similarities in temperament and background.
“We were both headstrong, intelligent, creative, well educated all around but especially in the sciences, tomboys who took after our fathers, and too inherently skeptical to take all we were told at face value. We were different in that she was more willing to jump into the fray than I was.
“Though Tae Yun told us she didn't want COL students to compete with each other, she constantly made comparisons. Most of the time we all knew who was being rewarded and who was being punished, even if we didn't know why.
“Due to the deprivations of sleep, nutrition, and other things that made us edgy and to our closeness in rank, Carson said and I were often in conflict with each other. Our competition for Tae Yun's approval was especially acute at times.
“Yet despite this, we tended to gravitate toward friendship. Our closeness in temperament and rank gave us an empathy and respect for one another. So of course Tae Yun often turned us against each other. Tae Yun told me that Carson said, “ was jealous of me, but I don't think she ever said, “ what for. She also advised me to spend more time with HC. This seemed strange to me at the time, because although HC and I were hardly ever in conflict that I can remember, we had little in common.
“I'll bet Tae Yun turned Carson and I against each other because a possible alliance between us was something she deeply feared.”
bemused said, “They can stop using the name COL but it wouldn’t matter...that group will always be COL, and what would they call themselves if not COL? they're just shying from the spotlight, which in itself is ironic because kim loves the spotlight. it must only be the spotlight she can control.
“If COL members didn't live together in squalid conditions (for example 10 people in a 3 bedroom apartment), they would have to pay Silicon Valley rents, and they couldn't afford to work for Lighthouse for way below market value. Tae Yun would actually have to pay them what they were worth.
“Tae Yun loves being in the spotlight as long as it doesn't shine on things she doesn't want people to see. But being a celebrity means having no privacy. It means seeing every stupid thing you do appear in tabloid headlines. She can't have it both ways.”
Carson said, “We've all been hurt by events that happened under Tae Yun, and some of us may be bitter, or angry, or resentful, or even feel vengeful at times. And expressing those things may be a good cathartic, a good way of opening up, cleaning out and healing. But to someone who hasn't been through what we have it make look like petty complaining and vengeful ranting.
“Having lived through 15 years under Tae Yun I can say that there is nothing that I have seen written here that is false, or even exaggerated. Granted, I haven't taken the time to read every post (I only found you all a few days ago, and I do have a life! A very good one, I might add...) Some of the things may seem preposterous to someone who hasn't been where we are, and if I hadn't lived it myself I would probably think so, as well.
I am very happy to see that the writings generally stay to the facts and rarely spiral down into ridiculing Tae Yun and COL members. Sometimes it does, and I can understand why, but I think it detracts from our purpose here, which (as best I can tell, being a noob) is to get the truth out there.
“Also, one of the things that made me very uncomfortable about Tae Yun was how she preached unconditional love, yet would ridicule those who disagreed with her, and talked very poorly about those who left. She would bring up people who had moved on, even years afterwards, and make fun of the things they had done or were doing with their lives since they had left. Even on my last meeting with her (February 2005, when I went back to get my things) she mentioned Daniel Johnson to me and berated the fact that he considered himself a Master in a martial art he had joined after leaving JSW and COL. What's the point? So I want to avoid bashing, and venting, and making snide references to how people look or how they talk - those are the sorts of things Tae Yun and her followers do. I hope I've learned, from seeing how distasteful it is to ridicule, to always treat others with the respect they deserve as fellow human beings, even if I don't agree with them.”
Ryanbeld said, “people there still think her looks are based on her "energy" and not from plastic surgery. Ha, haha. Logic fails me on how to comprehend that. But sure...dim the lights during class while you are healing and just tell everyone its for energy purposes. Crock! Its half Kim's fault for chronically lying and half COL's fault for believing it when its right in front of their face. Either way it doesn’t bode well. If she looks that way because of her energy why do you let her teach you energy? And if she did have plastic surgery (which she did) then she's a liar. Its a lose, lose scenario...better to just outright ignore it because its her "personal life"
“If her looks weren't enough vanity for her, she wants to play god. I don’t see anyone being more vain than that. But she had a vision of a computer and a strawberry...who am I to question? Lol
“I remember someone questioned why we were chanting "Tae Yun, Tae Yun" I forget the exact response but one of the seniors gave some different meaning to the words and said, “ that we weren’t actually chanting her name. Haha. Lucky for her she chose the name that matched the chants...what are the odds?”
Carson said, “I haven't read all the posts, can someone tell me more about the plastic surgery? I remember one time many years ago she was asking for donors of her blood type because she would be going in for reconstructive surgery to fix some things from when she had the tumors that almost killed her (back when she was in Vermont, became pregnant and the baby died inside her, but she didn't miscarry and the dead baby in her womb became septic and she almost died. Then some time later (I believe it was later) she developed tumors that the doctors said would kill her, but she meditated and fasted and prayed and they went away. I knew her doctor was a cosmetic surgeon, but she said, he was rebuilding her insides (seemed like a strange story - I would think a different type of surgeon would do internal reconstruction, but I may be wrong)
“Then not too long before I left she had a very long surgery session, I believe she said, she was under the knife for 14 hours. Supposedly it was to rebuild the lining all the way around her chest cavity, damaged again due to the rotten dead baby incident.
“It was botched - several months later she showed the huge black gap of skin on her back and the scars, which would need further surgeries to replace. Are these the surgeries being referred to?
“Also, her claim to be a cancer survivor - I assumed it was due to the tumor episode while back in Vermont. Was there a different claim or incident of cancer? By the way, when I had cancer it was claimed to be due to my poor attitude and depraved lifestyle before training (read Seven Steps to Inner Power on cancer and sickness)
“But when she was sick, or had cancer, it was because she was taking on the woes of the world, or her students stressed her out, or Satan was trying to wear her down, or God was teaching her what it was like for others.”
bemused said, “I don't object to Tae Yun's plastic surgery per se. These are my objections:
She paid for it with COL's money while COL could barely afford to eat. She lied about it and said she had cancer. She relentlessly criticized the COL women about their appearance claiming their "bad energy" made them overweight or unattractive.”
Ryanbeld said, “It’s possible she did have cancer at some point in her life. But she's had plastic surgery often and played the C card too many times. Cancer doesn't lift and tighten your face. Cancer doesn't enhance breasts. And the fact she was so tight lipped about it is proof in itself that it wasn’t cancer. But I still hold out possibility that she has had it at some point. It just sucks we wasted all those hours in the dojang meditating and chanting with the blinds down while she was trying to stay young...I could have been at parties, or with friends...but no, I had to "send her energy because she was fighting for her life". Fighting for her looks is more like it.”
Carson said, “Sorry, I wasn't clear. Tae Yun didn't tell me the cancer was my own fault, it was a COL woman just senior to me who did. Tae Yun did, however, direct me to read Seven Steps during my recovery, and clearly in the book is the reference to cancer and diseases being caused by 'bad energy' and Karma, and it states the diseases will keep coming back unless the person 'fixes' their energy.
“Now science has shown that stress can indeed 'cause' cancer by wearing down the immune system, but I don't think that's what Tae Yun was referring to. After all, I was never under more stress in my life as I was the last 3-4 years there, working 14-16 hour days 7 days a week (and around the clock just before Semicon shows), and constantly being told by Tae Yun that we weren't working hard enough and we didn't care. That's supposed to be motivational?”
Ryanbeld said, “so according to her book...her "cancer" is based on her energy and she won't get any better until she changes her ways. Oh but wait...the "teachings" don't apply to her since she is "not on our level" haha...crock!”
Her Lesson said, “Thank you Rossanna said, “ for clearing that up for me. Although, I still find it interesting that after all these years, no one has stopped her destruction.”
bemused said, “I remember your illness. I was there at COL3 when you lost a lot of blood couldn't even sit up let alone stand up. It was fortunate we had the same birthday because I was able to tell the EMTs from the ambulance your birth date along with some other critical information. You could have died.
“You had a bona fide life-threatening medical emergency and mainly what you got from Tae Yun was criticism. She had expensive plastic surgery she didn't even need and demanded everyone's utmost concern for a week.”
Carson said, “ Tae Yun really does have a very good grasp of how the human mind works. She is a GGM of spin-doctoring, and knows all the tricks - get your word out first and it will be believed (as when Scott called me with the accusations against Adam G), groupthink - yes, it's a real work and concept, and discussed a lot with respect to psychology, business management and corporate culture, fear, doubt, ego, etc. She may not have been 'well educated' but she certainly knows how to manipulate people. It's really amazing. I did learn while I was with her that appearances are far more important than the actual truth (at least in getting others to believe you) and she is a GGM at keeping up appearances - the big house, adoring workers, people ready to sing her praises at any moment and agree with her every word. Ad it's self perpetuating. With that kind of momentum it's hard to stop. I think the key will not be trying to stop her head on, but directing the energy so it destroys itself, as in Aikido. I think she is on the way - we only need to keep the energy going that direction.”
Rossanna said, “I think we have made jokes about her looks because we’re laughing at her because: Its all fake and it’s not even a good job that she paid for. And I have heard that she uses celebrity cosmetic doctors. Shame.
“She used to make fun of our looks all the time and ask us why we couldn’t look more like her using energy. She wanted us to believe her looks were based ALL on energy when in fact she lied to us and paid for it all.
“She lied to us so many times about going on some special program in the freezing cold, or some story about fighting for her life, when she was really in Beverly Hills getting, nipped tugged and pulled. How many times did we meditate and pray for her, actually thinking she was sick or meditating on our purpose in the mountains.
“She told us all the money we contributed was going to be used towards our dream of building COL City. Its been about 15 years since I first heard those words mentioned.
“She still isn’t any closer to that dream than she was 15 years ago. And LWS was doing great while Adam G was there. Lack of money isn’t to blame, its her spending habits. I believe COL city never existed and will never come into fruition. She used our hard earned cash partly on her wardrobe and cosmetic surgery.
“We are laughing at the fact that even though she lied to us while getting that surgery and even after shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars on her body...she still looks bad. She should have aged naturally.
“She can’t yell at COL members about their looks anymore. Look at her. Have you seen recent pictures of her lately... Her front lip sticks out a little and forms a little V, almost like a duck.
“You know what the tragedy in all this is? The fact that she doesn't realize that she can make herself as beautiful as she wants, spend all the money changing her nose, her chest, her entire body even but the core of a person is the soul and if the soul is rotten than no matter what enhancements you do to yourself, the ugliness will come through. The adage "handsome is as handsome does" has truth in it. I have known people who are so beautiful that you just can't seem to take your eyes off them until they speak and the filth that comes out of such a seeming work of art is enough to make you ill as if you are being exposed to the vilest kind of garbage. I have also known some who are so homely and plain that more often than not, they seem almost invisible until you get to know them and realize just how beautiful they really are because of the goodness they have in their heart.
“One terrible accident, a fire, or a car crash is all it takes and whatever surface beauty one has can be gone in that instant but the beauty within is constant and is what counts at the end of the day.
“If there is one thing I would say to Kim it would be this.
“Life has a way of getting cut short when you least expect it. None of us will ever know when God will decide that our time is up. You may claim otherwise but you and I both know that your claims of talking to God is bull and just another thing you use to make yourself seem better than others. I don't understand why you chose the path that you did. You had the talent and the capacity to bring people to you and could’ve done so much good had you chosen to do so. This could have been your legacy. You would have been remembered and revered for touching so many lives. You had the opportunity to help more than 100 times and each time you chose to hurt instead.
“While there is life, there is hope and even you can change if you really wanted to. It takes a strong person to realize their mistakes and have the guts to stand up and face them head-on. Time has taken it's toll on you and pretty soon, all the surgery in the world won't hide the ugly person that you are inside and if I were you I would focus on beautifying your soul instead of your body. Your talk of God and his messages to you may fool other people but what are you going to do when you finally meet your maker? Are you going to try to convince him that he was mistaken in what he saw you doing down here? Do you think you can play the minority card or buy your way out of trouble again? Remember this, at the end of our time, we go to our maker with nothing but our soul, no body, no pretty face, no titles, just our soul in the state that it has become based on how we lived our life.
“What kind of soul will you bring? a rotting, festering vile mess full of hate, selfishness and vanity? Think about it.
“"You don't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when. You can only decide how you're going to live. Now." Joan Baez. peace.”
Her Lesson said, “Information from another reliable source was she did not have cancer before she went to CA. The information I received was she self-injected silicone into her breast area before she came to the US. Eventually the stuff diffused throughout her upper body and caused problems and had to be removed which left surgical scars.”
Kathy said, “I have just been reading the posts. You guys have been busy posting today. Yeah Tae Yun calls me a cockroach. So what, names never bothered me, because I know that what someone says about you doesn't make it true. Sure I would like a great body and a perfect face, but you know what? I'm glad I have the heart and soul that I have. That is what people are really about. I have had a really hard life. Been through many hardships. But there is nothing that I would change. Life experience makes you who you are. But if you see someone that is hurting people or telling untruths, I believe you have to be able to speak up, or carry the burden of what others are blindly falling into or following. Too many turn their head. They don't want to get involved. Well that is another thing for you to answer for on judgment day. You say, I don't want to go there anymore, if it was happening to you or someone that you knew or loved, wouldn't you speak up? We are really all family, if you like it or not. It's hard to admit that you were in a cult. It makes you feel dumb...that some person was able to convince to spend all those years serving her. But turn it around and realize how strong it has made you. Strong enough that you will stand for others that don't realize the truth. To make people accountable for what they have done to others. amen...”.
Failed Student said, “Hi Carson - It's nice to have another voice added to the chorus. I'm also happy to see that you have resolved the misunderstandings you had with other ex-COLons. You all were kept in a state of ignorance and suspicion of one another, but now that the veil has been lifted, you can see clearly the machinations of Tae Yun Kim.
“Your contributions to this forum add evidence to the insults, hurts, affronts, and humiliations meted out by Tae Yun Kim. She is a selfish person and will exploit anyone and everyone in order to satisfy her needs. There is no "our purpose", there is only her purpose, her comfort, her pleasures, and everyone that follows her has been duped into thinking there is actually some goal to be achieved by the long hours, sleep deprivation, limited food intake, rigorous training, special programs, and the like.
“Although my experience with her was many years ago and prior to her moving to California with her merry band, she has continued on in her style, only more extreme.
I have had the pleasure of communication with many ex followers and I hope whatever information I contribute will help in healing and closure for all of us.
“The trial in October has been a long time in coming and I plan on attending along with many others. Tae Yun Kim must be made to face those she has oppressed.”
Kathy said, “since I read saman post I thought I would repost this. sk is a very good writer. It is just that her facts are wrong. Does she really think we all left on the same day? We left at different times and we know how everyone reacted to our leaving. She lives a most fairy tale life. But if she is happy in it, so be it. I believe everyone is just making claims to what really happens there and what Tae Yun really does or doesn't do. Or who she claims to be. But maybe I will try to give her a call and see what she has to say. I don't have her number on speed dial so I may have to look it up. I will let you all know if she takes my call.
“Gosh I thought I wasn't even worthy of being mentioned! Nice post sk. Lots of it I know nothing about. But you see, some I do know about. I do know about the arranged marriages. Your "hubby" volunteered to marry Carrie. So did Michael F.. Then DP was gone and so KW ended up back there and married to Michael F.. What happened to that marriage?
“I know why they wanted to recruit you when you came. You had skills they wanted. You were easy to mold. Plus you had a family that wouldn't miss you being gone.
“People can have scars on their breasts from bad boob jobs too. Sometimes they tend to leak. Believe what you want, or better yet, what Tae Yun wants you to believe.
“As far as name calling "who called me the cockroach'? Tae Yun is very immature in some things. Name calling doesn't bother me. I said, “ she had a flat head, but she does. I'm fat, so what. But I will put my truth next to Tae Yun's any day and I bet you she can't measure up.
“Sarah, why do you think her last husband left her? What did she tell you? Why did I leave? Because her lies were going to be the undoing of an unknowing young man who deserved to know the truth about her cancer scare and her ability to have children. He found out the TRUTH and annulled the marriage and never looked back. That is why she hates me. Or do you actually think she is so forgiving she would accept a phone call from me? Or better yet, for me to come visit her?
“I'm sorry you had such a terrible childhood. Sounded pretty good to me. You at least know who your parents are. Everyone has their own story. You weren't there when Chica's mom was glad to be rid of the responsibility of caring for her children. I was. She just wanted to serve her master, Tae Yun. In fact I'm not even going to go in to that as they are the one's working through their pain. They probably wished the worse they had was having to take piano lessons or go to college on their own. Your parents paid for yours didn't they?
“It was a well written COL letter though. I bet you get an extra something for it.”
bemused said, “
Shadow Dancer said, “Great job Bemused. One tiny correction. ES is my ex-wife. Though there are some amusing parallels in what you wrote.”
Bemused said, “Thanks! I made that correction and a few other clarifications.”
Carson said, “At my last meeting with Tae Yun in February of 2005 she asked me to start teaching JSW at the local University here, where I now work. But not long after that meeting I checked the JSW website and I was no longer even listed as one of her black belts. I had been 'airbrushed out'. At that point I decided to not consider teaching at the University any longer - if I so quickly no longer existed in her mind then I was moving on and leaving her and JSW behind.
“There were many great things I learned directly and indirectly from Tae Yun's teaching. Some of it her philosophies expounded in her books - you are one of a kind, be true to yourself, don't be controlled by greed, or ego, or pride, or lust. And much was also taught by looking at her example, and seeing what I did not want to be. She often taught one thing - like unconditional love - yet did not practice it herself. Is it unconditional love to speak badly about those who leave? Tae Yun will claim she sends love to those "who hate her", yet her actions speak otherwise.
“FYI - I do not hate Tae Yun - I only wish to try to help others not become her victims.
As others have said, Tae Yun could have been one of the greatest teachers in Reality, not just in her own mind and the minds of her loyal followers. But she became a victim herself of her own arrogance. It is sad, so much good could have come of all she has (had) to give.”
Shadow Dancer said, “I have to question whether kim ever had the ability to be the 'real deal'. From the information given by the man that met her, married her, and brought her from Korea, she has basically been weaving a web of lies. How great can she be when you consider that (according to her ex):
“She is not a master (let alone a grandmaster) as she only tested to 3rd degree.
Her story of the master in the mountain is bogus.
She was a 'comfort woman'
She presents herself as a CEO, but can barely figure out how to turn on a computer.
She has no real working knowledge of any of the products that LWS sells.
Her books are ghost written. Since she can barely cobble a sentence together in English... how much of those books could she have actually written?
Her degrees are honorary or bought.
Her shows of 'energy mastery' are cheap parlor tricks.
“She claims her energy keeps her young (but how did the energy grow her boobs?)
“I'm not sure what she would 'teach'? It isn't martial arts... she doesn't participate directly in class, except to show individual movements, or to kiup. She doesn't spar. Her 'breaks' are done by others on her. When she does perform a form, they are basically dance routines... who has ever even seen her do Pyong Cho Dan?
“Her lectures are general mainstream feel-good about yourself new age sewage that is available from multiple sources in the bay area. For your $15,000 private week with 'Madame'... what did you learn that you have taken from that class? Was it really worth it? Could you have found that information elsewhere, with less expense and mandated gratitude?
“If she had real knowledge and skills, then, coupled with her ability to suck people in, she could have given them something of value. But without the goods to deliver, she seems to be more like a used car salesman with a gold tooth and cheap polyester suits waiting for some mark to come into the lot.
Rossanna said, “Being able to draw and convince more than a 100 people to believe in her and have the ability to touch something in them that they are willing to give their lives for you is a skill in itself not learned in school or in any martial art class. All that is listed above is how she went wrong but had she used this innate skill to help instead of to harm, just think of how she could have touched the lives of these 100 or so people? Had she taken that path and really helped, would it matter to anyone that she once made her living as a prostitute? I think not.
“The reason why we are all up here is precisely because she used her skill to entice people to her and cemented the ties through lies and deceit. One thing that I have consistently heard from the exers who chose to follow Kim is that they did so because they were looking for a higher purpose, they wanted to help and make a difference in the lives of other people. She promised this opportunity along with other things and did not follow through on any of them. That was her "hook" to get people involved in her "special programs".
“There is a lot of talk here about Kim and the major players in her group but hardly ever do you hear about the little fishes who are actually the backbone that keep things running smoothly for her. KH, CW, PN,...etc, the lesser mortals who do all the dirty work are actually the nicest and sweetest people....well, they were to me anyway. KH was the one person who when I had the flu in CA prior to moving to OR (it was a bad bout lasting more than 2 weeks), made sure that I had medicine and food and took the time to make sure I was ok. I even remember her bringing some chicken soup to the apartment in Milpitas from ES, chica and Ryan’s mom. They didn't have to do that. I don't think it was something Kim even knew about and I hope that there are no repercussions from this telling but I have a need to let people know that cult or no cult, these people have good hearts.
“Then there is CW who while she spent time in OR on a project used to take the time to shoot some hoops with me even if she really didn't really want to. She kicked the soccer ball around with me and even baked an apple pie for us just because she could. She is one person who went through a lot of difficult times and had been hurt so many times yet she took the little time she had to alleviate the homesickness of a person who was far away from everything that was familiar. For that I will always be grateful.
“PN was and still is my friend no matter what may have transpired in the years since I have been gone from Lighthouse. He took the time to listen and we had great conversations about anything and everything. He also took it upon himself to see to my safety during a particularly scary time during my first year in the US. He is a good man with a good heart who deserves to have a full and successful life. He is not made to follow rules as he more often than not succeeds in what he does when allowed to march to his own drummer. 2 years ago, he almost left to pursue his own dreams but as I hear it, kim had a long and I mean long conversation with him that must have sucked up all his brain cells because he opted to stay. It is my hope that he will shake off whatever spell was put on him that made him change his mind about leaving and know that should he ever need a helping hand, he knows where to find one.
“Kim knows what she has done. She may deny it all and talk about jealousy and disgruntled exers, etc, but at the end of the day, when she is all alone in her room, even she cannot lie to herself. She will look at the mirror and see the reflection of what she has become. She no longer has her lover and partner who used to comfort her when she felt the burden of her conscience upon her. The times when she called herself a fake and a bad person because of what she has done through the years. Who listens to you now Tae Yun? Who pats your back and holds you close when you feel everything closing in on you? You once told me that you feel so alone because you always have to be strong for those who follow you. You cannot show any weakness even when you hurt. You had someone once who was strong enough for both of you. He's gone and living better and freer than he ever has and loving every minute of it. Do you lay awake at night thinking about how it was? Where he is and who he's with? Do you wonder that if you had played things differently if you would still have the one person who saw you laid bare before him and still accepted you, warts and all?
“Is this what you will be doing for the rest of your life? wondering , waiting, angry and above all, alone in a prison of your own making?”
bemused said, “Carson and Rossanna have both commented that Tae Yun could have used her charisma for a good purpose. In previous posts I have similarly asked why she couldn't settle for being a decent martial arts teacher. Her charisma is probably more learned than innate. People learn to attract and manipulate people when they are strongly motivated to do so. Gandhi was inherently very shy, but he became a charismatic leader because he was strongly motivated to free his country.
“Unfortunately, Tae Yun has less noble motivations. If you read about narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder, which are closely related and often co-morbid, you see a glimpse into Tae Yun's tortured psyche.
“Narcissism is caused by profound humiliation early in life, which causes vindictiveness and an insatiable desire to prove oneself. Narcissists are grandiose and paranoid, and they just can't get enough admiration. They desire relationships but lack empathy, so they keep people by charming and manipulating them. They value other people based on how well those people mirror their inflated self-image. The slightest insult can trigger rage, although they can control this reaction if they are in the spotlight.
“Antisocial PD may be partly inborn. It may be the result of abuse, but people with APD are such pathological liars that you often can't get an honest biography. It is related to attachment disorder, an inability to bond with people that is common in children raised in orphanages. The difference is that people with APD compensate by developing a surface charm. They feel pleasure, pain, anger, and acute fear, but other emotions are more acted than experienced. They have no conscience or ability to love, but ironically, they are skilled at evoking pity in others. If they desire power, they are monsters.
“Tae Yun probably did have a very rough childhood. She may well have been as abused and neglected as she claims. Still, I have difficulty pitying someone who is incapable of pity and who uses pity to use people.
Bemused said, “You know, she is funny about that. I remember when KS who used to do Tae Yun's PR, left back in 1996 and promised Tae Yun Kim that she would still "spread her teachings" and still promote her. When she came back to visit about a month later and asked for JSW fliers to post at her local Laundromat, Tae Yun didn't want any of us to give her any materials. She didn't want KS to promote her. It was weird.
“Sounds like the same thing happened to you. Tae Yun asked you to start teaching JSW, yet when it came down to it, she wiped you off her JSW site. She has issues. Few people left as nicely as KS did. She was part-time COL for a while, and left after being in full-time COL (living at COL3) only briefly. She was a beautiful blue-eyed blonde whom Tae Yun liked to parade around as a "daughter," especially to the Korean businessmen who visited Lighthouse. KS took Tae Yun's New-Agey teachings very literally, and after gaining what she could from them, she felt she wanted to take what she learned out into the world. But Tae Yun resented her leaving at all because Tae Yun treated her like a princess and invested a lot of time in developing her role.
“EA (Armstrong)? also left nicely. He was in full-time COL for a few years, trying to start projects for which Tae Yun and other COL members had little enthusiasm. He cherry-picked what he wanted to learn from Tae Yun and didn't have a problem arguing with her. At one point Tae Yun said, something like, "If you don't have total commitment, or you can't hack it, you can leave COL any time." Her intent was to get everyone to try harder, but EA's response was to quit figuring he just didn't fit in. To this day he's a Jung Suwon student off and on. He was never brainwashed but he never really got wise to her either.
“Another amicable leave-taker was RL (not DP), who handled security for Tae Yun for a few years in the 90s. Even after leaving full-time COL he continued to handle security and attend Jung Suwon classes off and on. Maybe he was never "inside" enough to see Tae Yun's abusive side.
“I tried to leave nicely, and on her terms. I even agreed when JW asked if I had been fairly compensated at Lighthouse. But I couldn't resist giving Tae Yun a few points of feedback. For example, in one of my last journals, I wrote, "Grandmaster does not handle disagreement well." I think you can imagine how that went over.”
bemused said, “Shadow Dancer - After all of the tall tales about: cancer, mountain/master training, court victories, evil opponents who are only jealous of her, her honorary degree, hope of the world, prophetess, etc. etc. etc... I find it hard to believe anything that comes out of her mouth. I'm beginning to think that she had a relatively normal childhood and that her father only ostracized her when he found out about her peddling herself for cheap coin.
“There are several theories on how psychopaths, sociopaths, APD, whatever it's called, occurs. Some psychologists think it's inborn and that psychopaths are "impervious to their upbringing" because they often have siblings who are not psychopaths. Other psychologists see similarities to narcissistic, histrionic, and borderline personality disorders, and to attachment disorder, and think it's a result of abuse or neglect as those other disorders clearly are. The nature/nurture debate rages on.
“Regardless of whether she was born or raised that way, I've come to think she deserves no pity. Most people who were abused do not become abusers, and some even dedicate their lives to helping other victims. Even if she has no conscience, she clearly understands the law and social norms well enough to pretend to the public that she follows them. She is therefore capable of making moral choices and is responsible for her actions.
“Although I think she deserves no pity, any punishment she receives should come from truthful reporting in the press or due process of law. I wouldn't stoop to her level of breaking windows and making threats.”
bemused said, “I'm not very familiar with the security work RL and CH did, but from what I heard they seemed to bungle things. When Tae Yun lectured at the Commonwealth Club, the venue complained that security for heads of state and diplomats wasn't as extreme or disruptive as Tae Yun's security. RL and CH were sometimes called upon to do things security people don't normally do, for example to help keep Tae Yun from being served SE's (Eccles)? divorce papers. Security people normally try to be invisible, but Tae Yun's attitude seemed to be, "I need security, which shows how important I am."”
Carson said, “As for families, not long before I left I asked for weekends off so I could help out my mother in caring for my terminally-ill father. I was told no, that the work at LWS was too critical to the survival of the company. I asked for every-other weekend off, and was again told no. A week later was when I walked out of the COL class for being accused of not caring about Tae Yun or LWS because I had not gone to see Tae Yun the night before she left for a speaking engagement in New York. I went to my parents and helped care for my dad until he died 18 months later, while getting a new job and starting to rebuild my life.
“I am so glad I did. I think I would have greatly regretted it had I stayed and not helped ease my father's suffering and support my mother through it all.
“I joined COL because of the promises of being a part of something greater than myself - helping people and helping put Tae Yun's teachings in motion in a way that would help make the world a better place. Gradually that goal was spoken of less and less. Before I left, Tae Yun's motivational talks were about everyone making $250,000 a year, owning two homes, three cars, and each of us managing 500 people. That wasn't why I joined and wasn't what I wanted, so at the end it was easier to walk.
“Besides - my life was such that I didn't care whether I lived or died, and sometimes wished I would go to sleep and not wake up. So I had nothing to lose.”
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